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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

2932 messages,  Last post on May 23, 2013 at 9:38 PM

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Messages Page 136 of 294

#1345 of 2932 Re: How would you have handeled this? [thecardoc3] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Feb 12, 2013 (8:38 am)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Feb 12, 2013 6:49 am)
In California at least, the hourly rate between the dealer and "the competition" is not very great---maybe 20% less.
 
My impression is that the dealer rates encourage other shops who may not be worth anywhere near $130/hour, to charge that, given that $160 is charged at the dealer.

#1346 of 2932 Re: How would you have handeled this? [Mr_Shiftright] by thecardoc3

Feb 12, 2013 (9:44 am)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Feb 12, 2013 8:38 am)
My impression is that the dealer rates encourage other shops who may not be worth anywhere near $130/hour, to charge that, given that $160 is charged at the dealer.
 
So how much do you know about their cost of doing business?

#1347 of 2932 Re: How would you have handeled this? [thecardoc3] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Feb 12, 2013 (9:53 am)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Feb 12, 2013 9:44 am)
Only in relative terms---the location, condition of the shop, and display of tools (and the type of cars in the front of the building) allows me to compare overheads to a degree.
 
To use a somewhat crude comparison, if Shop A operates in a filthy little, badly lit dump on the wrong side of the tracks, and charges $100/hr, and shop B is in an attractive building that his clean, well organized and well equipped and charges $130 hour, I would say that chances are the $100/shop is operating at not much more than DIY level and not worth the money.
 
If the shops with the best appearances and best recommendations are struggling, I can only imagine that the dump-shops are cheating like crazy.

#1348 of 2932 Re: How would you have handeled this? [Mr_Shiftright] by andre1969

Feb 12, 2013 (10:03 am)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Feb 12, 2013 9:53 am)
If the shops with the best appearances and best recommendations are struggling, I can only imagine that the dump-shops are cheating like crazy.
 
One thing that seems to be a key factor around these parts at least, is how much real estate the shop occupies. The place I'm going to now has a pretty big yard, so storage isn't a problem. They can take their time and try to get a problem fixed right, rather than just doing a quickie rush job to get it out the door, only to have it break down again just around the corner.
 
The old mechanic didn't have as much space, so I think that's why he rushed so much. Although, he does have an '85 Riviera that's been sitting there since at least November 2009...so they'll rush on some things, but sit on others.
 
The mechanic before that had even less space, so would tend to rush even worse. That was the one who worked on my '79 New Yorker, proudly proclaimed he wouldn't be afraid to drive it anywhere, only to have it break down on me, just around the corner from his shop. He also did some work on my uncle's '97 Silverado, and that one was even more epic. I get the phone call that it's ready to go, go out to pick it up, and it was dead where it sat...couldn't even move it off the premises. I forget what the first part was that the mechanic replaced, but it turns out it wasn't that, but the fuel pump instead.

#1349 of 2932 Re: How would you have handeled this? [Mr_Shiftright] by thecardoc3

Feb 12, 2013 (10:23 am)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Feb 12, 2013 9:53 am)
To use a somewhat crude comparison, if Shop A operates in a filthy little, badly lit dump on the wrong side of the tracks, and charges $100/hr, and shop B is in an attractive building that his clean, well organized and well equipped and charges $130 hour, I would say that chances are the $100/shop is operating at not much more than DIY level and not worth the money.
 
Isn't that the problem with "assuming"?
My shop isn't the fanciest building by a long shot, and it never will be because we only lease it. Meanwhile the shop near us that is in the really fancy building relies on just one Snap-On scan tool while I have a total of sixteen scan tools, eleven of which are full up to date O.E. For us it's a choice, spend money to make someone else's building look sharp, or spend it on the tools that the customers need us to have. There isn't enough to do both. (Well actually there isn't enough to spend on the tools these days so we have had to start limiting what we work on in order to maintain the precision we demand of ourselves.)
 
Only in relative terms---the location, condition of the shop, and display of tools (and the type of cars in the front of the building) allows me to compare overheads to a degree.
 
That degree isn't as high as some might think. Shop location. We could move our shop to the main street which would add about $3000 a month to our expenses, but it would not enhance our ability to solve the customers vehicle problems. Again the money is better spent on tools and schools. That $3000 a month would mean a significant price increase BTW.

#1350 of 2932 Re: How would you have handeled this? [thecardoc3] by xwesx

Feb 12, 2013 (11:28 am)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Feb 12, 2013 5:56 am)
The labor time alloted via the TSB is .4hr.
 
0.4 hours? Either that's some fast work, or the shop is getting taken to the cleaners on that one.
 
Thanks for the heads up. I'm going to fill it up again today at some point, so if I have trouble with it again I'll set up an appointment. Thankfully, the local Ford dealership has a fantastic shop and the (customer) service to match.

#1351 of 2932 Re: How would you have handeled this? [xwesx] by thecardoc3

Feb 12, 2013 (11:26 am)

Replying to: xwesx (Feb 12, 2013 11:28 am)
Either that's some fast work, or the tech is getting taken to the cleaners on that one.
 
Fixed it for you.

#1352 of 2932 Re: How would you have handeled this? [xwesx] by steve_ HOST

Feb 12, 2013 (1:22 pm)

Replying to: xwesx (Feb 12, 2013 11:28 am)
the local Ford dealership has a fantastic shop and the (customer) service to match
 
Years ago heading up to paddle Birch Creek, my '89 Voyager's CEL came on and it started sucking down the gas. I pulled into a private shop and the tech said the problem was likely an O2 sensor and that while they could fix it, it was probably a warranty item and I should go check with the Chrysler dealer. I did and it was. There's some good folks in your town.

#1353 of 2932 Diplomacy isn't my strongsuit by thecardoc3

Feb 13, 2013 (12:10 am)

Well this should be interesting. I've been approached by some members of the dealers association to assist them in getting more training programs running in the secondary schools again. They also want my input on exactly what the curriculum should concentrate on. Yea I can do that, but there is a problem. Why should I do that? A couple of posts ago the NVLD (natural vapor leak detection) module was mentioned as a likely cause for the hard to fill fuel tank on the Fiesta. The labor time is .4hrs under warranty. If you really understand a technicians job, that .4 is to get the repair order from the service writer, and find the car. Pull it into the shop and connect the scan tool to retrieve the trouble code and start the diagnostics. The next step is to check the TSB's and then if one is found as mentioned earlier, follow the steps as outlined. Now the tech needs to go to the parts department, (wait his/her turn) and get a new NVLD which they hopefully have in stock, and then replace the part as described. Now the codes get cleared a quick self test is run to make sure no problems occurred as a result of doing the repair, check for any fingerprints/grease marks and park the vehicle back outside. All for a whopping .4hr.
 
If you have done this a few times, and you don't actually test anything it's likely that you can come close to that time, (.4hrs) but there is no room for any surprises at any point in the exercise. It's pull the code, and slam the part and run to get the next ticket. That is how "flat rate" works. The tech gets paid by the labor time billed. This same repair if it is customer pay would likely have the diagnostic time alone be .5 to .7 hrs and the labor to replace the NVLD is .7. That's a problem because the kids that we need to attract to the trade today, who are smart enough to work on these "robots in the driveway" are also smart enough to know that isn't a fair pay system. You can't pay someone .4 on one car to replace the NVLD, and then turn around and get paid 1.2 on another and call it "flat". That just doesn't pass the sniff test.
 
What's worse is it encourages a sloppy routine, in fact it rewards it so long as everything goes perfect while it is ready to duly punish the technicians at the first sign of a flaw for any reason .
 
I often refer back to the NBC sting operation that Mr Reed of Edmunds was involved in. They "exposed" dealer employee's over selling maintanence items. NBC did a second story on that reporting about how it was just dishonest employee's who were no longer employed at the dealerships that got caught. Their intent at that point was to exonerate the dealers from any wrong doing, and that is a load of bull IMO. If the service manager/dispatcher feeds warranty job after warranty job to a given tech then he/she will end up not producing the number of hours that the dealer demands of them and they would lose their job, even though they may be a talented, hard working technician simply by how the numbers look on a spreadsheet. If that same tech gives into the pressure and starts selling the maintenance items, then their productivity rises without them working as hard and they make more money and their job is secure too because now they are producing $$$$. They manipulate the techs into selling and then abandon them if anyone raises a question about it, and that is what NBC actually exposed.
 
I can see how this is going to go because when I get in front of that room of dealers, one of the first things that I am going to talk about is what I just wrote right here and then I'm going to ask them a few questions and to make a list for me.
 
One of the questions will be; Would you want your son/daughter to become a technician in your shop? Yes or No
 
The next question would be would you want your son or daughter to be a technician in someone else's shop? Yes or No.
 
The next one will likely have some of them wanting to head for the door.
 
List the reasons why you would, or would not want your son or daughter working as a technician in your shop.
 
Now list the reasons you would or would not want them working as a tech in someone else's
 
Think about this, if they wouldn't want their own kids to become techs, why should anyone else? This has been the problem that has been getting swept under the rug for decades and now it's really come back to haunt them. This is a problem that has grown under their watch, its a measure of how poorly they have managed the service and repair side of the operation.
 
They have to establish a plan to make the job become one that they would want their kids to have, if their kids would want to chose to. Anything short of that and we aren't going to get anywhere, and that's a consumer issue. Before I can commit to helping attract anyone else's kids to this trade for them, it has to become a trade worth entering. As the title says, diplomacy isn't my strong suit. I'll have all of the ugly details laid right out there and they will have to address them up front with a clear plan or I'll be more inclined to stand in their way instead of trying to help them. Hmmm, looks like I already started doing just that.

#1354 of 2932 Re: Diplomacy isn't my strongsuit [thecardoc3] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Feb 13, 2013 (7:49 am)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Feb 13, 2013 12:10 am)
If I were a dealer in that room the first thing I'd do is raise my hand and ask you if YOU had already answered those questions, and if so, what are your answers.

Messages Page 136 of 294

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