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A Mechanic's Life - Tales From Under the Hood

2892 messages,  Last post on May 22, 2013 at 9:48 PM

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Messages Page 79 of 290

#780 of 2892 Re: Pressured to not do your best [thecardoc3] by srs_49

Jan 08, 2013 (12:35 pm)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Jan 08, 2013 9:47 am)
How does this equate to what it really takes to perform accurate diagnostics? In short it has no bearing at all and really only makes for a flawed argument.
 
The endgame is not an accurate diagnosis. The goal is to repair the problem in the most effective (re - cheapest, if you will) way possible.
 
As to the Soduku analogy, you should know that at a certain level of puzzle difficulty, the only thing you can do is to try a number (out of one or two or three possible candidates), then try and finish the puzzle. If you chose the wrong number in the first step, it may not be apparent until you come across an incorrect entry, such as having duplicate numbers in the same row, column, or square.
 
That's how obviously incorrect your suggestion to start with the assumption is to me.
 
You're the one that seems more interested in showing off his diagnostic skills than in solving the problem.
 
All I can say is, get a job as a technician and try your approach and see how long you last and just how well you do
 
In my line of work, one of the things I do is tell the technicians and junior engineers what tests to run; where to probe, what to look for. And yes, sometimes it means telling them to swap out modules.

#781 of 2892 Re: Pressured to not do your best [srs_49] by thecardoc3

Jan 08, 2013 (3:45 pm)

Replying to: srs_49 (Jan 08, 2013 12:35 pm)
The endgame is not an accurate diagnosis. The goal is to repair the problem in the most effective (re - cheapest, if you will) way possible.
 
So how much do you charge for one of your junior engineers or technicians to show up and begine a repair?
 
You're the one that seems more interested in showing off his diagnostic skills than in solving the problem
 
If that's really all you understand from the topic then I don't know what else to say. Clearly whatever business you are in, you (or your people)don't have to perform under the varying expectations that mechanics face. You really should open up a shop, spend 300K to equip it just enough to get started and then try and explain to some customer who is on a fixed income why it makes more sense to guess if the reason that the ABS module on his 2003 Passat isn't communicating on the data bus than it does to test and prove it. Then once you have replaced it and it didn't fix the problem let's see you explain to him why he now owns a $650 module that he didn't need (even though it's a very common failure item).
 
Maybe you'd like to take a stab at the Toyota that a fellow called about today. The transmission is randomly going into limp in mode. He needs the car reliable because (no kidding here) he is on a heart transplant list and since he isn't working he has no way to replace the car so it has to be repaired. He does have a warranty policy on it. These companies notoriously will pay one time and one time only and then expect you to fully guarantee that he won't have any more problems. Now the transmission control module is part of the valve body so we are talking $1700 installed and programmed. Are you willing to guess, or do you think it should be tested and proven first? BTW it might only act up once in the morning, it might go into and stay in failsafe all day. It's reported to not be setting any codes......
 
In my line of work, one of the things I do is tell the technicians and junior engineers what tests to run; where to probe, what to look for. And yes, sometimes it means telling them to swap out modules.
 
So who pays when it doesn't work? How many of the vehicle owners who post about problems here on this site do you think would like to be stuck paying for someone to do swaptronics on their cars? How much does your company charge to do that again?

#782 of 2892 Re: Pressured to not do your best [thecardoc3] by srs_49

Jan 09, 2013 (7:46 am)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Jan 08, 2013 3:45 pm)
So how much do you charge for one of your junior engineers or technicians to show up and begine a repair?
 
A lot .
 
So who pays when it doesn't work?
 
The customer. Most of the programs I work on are done on a T&M (time and material basis). They also are developmental, one-of-a-kind, state-of-the-art systems, so the customers understand that there will always be unforeseen problems that crop up, ones that could not be predicted, that have to be solved (and so paid for). It's a very different business model then the one you work under.
 
We are always making judgemental calls about how much effort to throw at troubleshooting a problem. Sometimes, we decide that we can live with a problem with some work-arounds. Other times, we have to push deep to uncover the root-cause of the problem, and fix it, no matter what the cost.
 
Let's use your Ford-Explorer-with-the-draining-battery as a crude analogy. Instead of spending the time and money to figure out the root cause of the battery draining, someone could decide that, for now, it would be acceptable to just 1) run the vehicle every day, or 2) put a low rate charger on the battery when the vehicle was sitting. While that may not seem like a good trade if the diagnostics and repairs only came to a couple of hundred dollars, it might be the "right" decision if the troubleshooting and repair would run $25K or more, as is not uncommon with many of the systems I work on.
 
Now the transmission control module is part of the valve body so we are talking $1700 installed and programmed. Are you willing to guess, or do you think it should be tested and proven first?
 
No, wouldn't guess on that one. But that's a different beast than the "failing the evaporative emissions check" that you favor running a full set of diagnostics on vs replacing a $20 gas cap first.

#783 of 2892 Re: Pressured to not do your best [srs_49] by thecardoc3

Jan 09, 2013 (8:15 am)

Replying to: srs_49 (Jan 09, 2013 7:46 am)
So who pays when it doesn't work?
  
The customer.
 
Would you accept that from your neighborhood dealership, or repair shop?
Let's see you explain to Steve why it's the correct approach for him.
 
We are always making judgemental calls about how much effort to throw at troubleshooting a problem. Sometimes, we decide that we can live with a problem with some work-arounds.
 
In our world, you'd be buying back your POS.... Think about that for a minute. In short you'd be out of business so fast you wouldn't know what happened. The thing here is you aren't being forced to try to live up to demands and promises that you know you can't keep. When we are demanded (forced) to try and exceed rational expectations the only place we can end up is in failure, no matter how much effort and investment went into creating the business in the first place.
 
The really funny part in all of this is when we do start to rise ahead of the norm we get to deal with comments like you made in the last response about my diagnostic strategies, and abilities. Basically I'd be further ahead to fall back into the crowd and just slam parts if your perception is allowed to stand.
 
Let's use your Ford-Explorer-with-the-draining-battery as a crude analogy. Instead of spending the time and money to figure out the root cause of the battery draining, someone could decide that, for now, it would be acceptable to just 1) run the vehicle every day, or 2) put a low rate charger on the battery when the vehicle was sitting.
 
Yea let's use it. It likely costs more for one of your people show up and to simply get started, than it cost this customer to get a scientifically confirmed result. Meanwhile, I'm using many of the same tools and training than they have , heck in some cases I'm probably bringing more to the game than they have to. Not to mention I have to provide every tool, and all of the programs and software out of my technicians share of the gross cost.
 
No, wouldn't guess on that one. But that's a different beast than the "failing the evaporative emissions check" that you favor running a full set of diagnostics on vs replacing a $20 gas cap first.
 
And here we have the golden kernel that this thread needed to expose. You can cherry pick the easiest of the failures and run and hide from the rest, but in our world there is no difference in the two of them. We have to make the same investment to handle all of the problems if we are going to handle any of them.
 
How would your business do if I could step into your world, steal all of the gravy work and only leave you the disasters? Meanwhile, I'd get to be the hero because I could do it for a fraction of what you must charge, while you'd constantly hear that your ripping your customers off because of your prices?
 
The Toyota is coming in Monday. He will be driving one of my own cars for the week while I figure out the problem that he is having with his car. If I'm lucky I'll be able to write the information into a class and actually get paid for fixing his car beyond just what I would make for whatever the actual repair is. If I can't well it's just another day in this mechanics life.

#785 of 2892 Re: Pressured to not do your best [carmichael2] by imidazol97

Jan 09, 2013 (8:44 am)

> they won't need
car service or drivers to navigate them!
 
We have that now. In the metro Dayton area there often are cars that have accidents and there is no driver anywhere to be found. They just hit something on their own.

#786 of 2892 Re: Pressured to not do your best [thecardoc3] by srs_49

Jan 09, 2013 (8:59 am)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Jan 09, 2013 8:15 am)
Let's go back to the "failing the evaporative emissions check" that you favor running a full set of diagnostics on vs replacing a $20 gas cap first" for a minute.
 
Last week when I went to drive the 2009 Infiniti to work, the Service Engine Light (CEL) came on, steady. Pulled it back into the garage and took another car to work for the week.
 
Looked through the owner's manual, and it said words to the effect that a steady on CEL indicated a non-serious emissions test failure, and suggested 1) making sure the gas tank was not near empty and 2) re-seating the gas cap.
 
So this week I drove the car to work (CEL on the whole way) and on the way home filled up with gas. Lo and behold, the CEL went off! So, the way I look at it, I'm two or three hundred dollars ahead of the game by not running to a shop and having the CEL problem "professionally" troubleshot.

#787 of 2892 Re: Pressured to not do your best [Mr_Shiftright] by isellhondas

Jan 09, 2013 (9:07 am)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Jan 08, 2013 8:24 am)
I would have done the same "repair" as you did with that piece of foam.
 
I've learned that a lot of dealership and "boutique" repair shops seem to think that every car should be perfect and every repair should restore the car to the way it was when it rolled off the assembly line.
 
I once had a Toyota Celica that the dealer told me needed a power steering pump reseal. After another 20,000 miles they told me this once again when it was in for service. I thought this odd because I had never had to add any fluid.
 
So, when I got home I took a flashlight and a mirror and took a look for myself.
 
Sure enough, there was ever the slightest seepage of oil around the shaft.
 
I drove that car another 50,000 miles or so and I think, once I added a couple of ounces of fluid to top it off.
 
So, did it "need" a PS reseal? According to the Toyota dealer it did but somehow I managed without it.

#788 of 2892 Re: Pressured to not do your best [srs_49] by thecardoc3

Jan 09, 2013 (10:58 am)

Replying to: srs_49 (Jan 09, 2013 8:59 am)
So this week I drove the car to work (CEL on the whole way) and on the way home filled up with gas. Lo and behold, the CEL went off! So, the way I look at it, I'm two or three hundred dollars ahead of the game by not running to a shop and having the CEL problem "professionally" troubleshot.
 
When we diagnose and PROVE that the fault really is a loose cap you're looking at an average cost under $40, not two or three hundred. Meanwhile since there is/was no testing or documentation as you have reported you really don't know if the cap was loose and causing a mil or not.The code could be anything, you are only able to ASSUME it was an evap code. BTW, haven't you ever heard that when you assume you make an a$$ out of u and me.
 
 Now the next question is if this was really a loose cap, why in 2009 hasn't Infinity caught up with the technology that my 2002 Explorer was built with? My Explorer runs specific testing that detects if the cap is loose after a refilling event and makes a proper report of the condition, with a loose cap light without ever having to wait for the rest of the system to run through it's testing and result in a full check engine light.
 
So this week I drove the car to work (CEL on the whole way) and on the way home filled up with gas. Lo and behold, the CEL went off
 
Now it's time to shout "Bravo-Sierra". Once the light comes on for a large or medium evaporative leak, it will take a minimum to two full tests, that both have to pass in order to turn the light back off, and that won't happen until the next time that the car is started after the second test completed. By design, the tests will rarely run more than once a day and your refueling event would have shut down the monitor if it was even trying to run at that time you refueled. You see there is really knowing how the cars work, and there are the myths like the one that you just tried to push.
 
Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and say the mil acted exactly as you described. That can only add up to the the fault being something other than a medium or large evap leak, and it darn sure wasn't a small leak because that test runs several hours later after you turn the car off.
 
Thanks for helping me make one of my points. Without real training and experience with how today's vehicle systems work, it doesn't matter what you do for a living. The simplest systems can leave you exposed as actually having no clue in a heartbeat.

#789 of 2892 Re: Pressured to not do your best [thecardoc3] by steve_ HOST

Jan 09, 2013 (11:12 am)

Replying to: thecardoc3 (Jan 09, 2013 10:58 am)
My Explorer runs specific testing
 
Good to see that Ford is getting there with self-diagnosing cars.

Messages Page 79 of 290

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