Last post on Dec 02, 2013 at 3:15 PM
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#4511 of 4850 Re: Want to travel? Be an Audi tech? [thecardoc3]
by Stever@Edmunds HOST
Sep 26, 2013 (2:27 pm)
In that part of the world, you'd probably have to know how to maintain the body armor and anti-carjacking flame throwers along the running boards.
#4512 of 4850 Re: OK, this is good Saturn 2003 SL300 [stickguy]
Sep 26, 2013 (4:57 pm)
Oh, I meant to include prospector. Definitely in the hate column. How the hell did that guy make a career out of buying and selling junk. Oh, hey, they did that show already. It was Sanford and Son! Only now it lacks the intentional comedy.
#4513 of 4850 Re: OK, this is good Saturn 2003 SL300 [isellhondas]
Sep 26, 2013 (5:53 pm)
I guess then it will be cheaper to work on, anyway. Tiny wire wheels with a million spokes sound better, especially if they are gold.
I am kind of surprised an old MB hasn't been messed up on one of those shows yet.
#4514 of 4850 The caller has a van that failed its emissions test
Sep 27, 2013 (7:19 pm)
Typical call, the owner has a van that he does all his own work on and it failed the emissions test. Being a 95 it gets the TSI which is a two speed idle test in Western Pa. My first thought was it's a van, yuck. I've never liked working on them and the older I get and the harder it is to move around it just gets more unpleasant. The guy was fun to talk to however and he wasn't really too interested in repairing it right now as much as he wants to do just enough that it qualifies for a waiver sticker. To get a waiver in Pa the owner only has to spend up to $150 attempting to repair the car. Only certified repair technicians can authorize a waiver so he was told to call us. When diagnostics and repairs are done by a shop the whole bill can be applied towards the waiver fee. If the owner does the work himself only the parts that were used qualify and he has to provide the receipts for the parts, have two failed emissions tests and then the technician has to confirm that the work was done and follow the rest of the routine to authorize the waiver. The customer had only put on about $70 in parts so he didn't qualify for the waiver yet, but they could be applied towards it and if we do the diagnostics that would get him to where he needs to be. He joked about just getting a bill to put him over the limit but I have my policy on that and if he has to spend a dime we make sure that he gets some value out of the expense and we really work towards making an improvement in the vehicles performance. (I won't throw parts for the sake of throwing parts). The last thing we agreed on was since this is a (conversion) van and the engine cover needs to be removed, he would pull the passengers front seat and have the engine cover fully exposed so that I would not have to spend any time doing that. He set his appointment for this morning (Friday).
This morning he called to let us know that he couldn't keep his appointment today. His son went into sudden cardiac arrest last night and he has been in the hospital with him all night and he had to head back there. The worst part was when he said that it doesn't look good for his son. Meanwhile he was apologizing for not being able to make it in and was worried that it would be an issue for us. All I could do was offer our sympathies and let him know we would add his son to our prayers and re-assured him that his family was more important and taking care of his van can wait. We will be there for him when he is ready, and for him to not worry about us because I have plenty of work to keep me busy. Just thinking about what he was going through put a dark cloud on the whole day.
#4515 of 4850 Re: Want to travel? Be an Audi tech? [thecardoc3]
Sep 28, 2013 (9:35 pm)
This link really did strange things to my browser. Opened a half screen of something and seemed to lock the cursor on this window. Could not get to much of anything else. I cntl+alt+del and started Task Manager and stopped the application.
I have run one virus/malware scanner and nothing was found, but just thought I would note the problem I had.
#4516 of 4850 Re: Want to travel? Be an Audi tech? [bolivar]
Sep 29, 2013 (5:07 am)
That's strange. Linked in is a professional networking site and the link still works just fine. Well anyway the only thing you missed is they want an experienced Audi tech and the rate of pay you can expect for moving to South Africa is 18,000-20,000 Rand a month.
#4517 of 4850 Re: Want to travel? Be an Audi tech? [thecardoc3]
Sep 29, 2013 (7:37 am)
It worked for me too.
FWIW, ZAR 20K is worth about USD 2K, so not a huge wage - maybe a lower cost of living than some of the US, but not the safest most stable society either.
#4518 of 4850 From the answers....
Sep 30, 2013 (9:43 am)
I'm a bit confused here...you say that when the issue is happening, the starter relay loses voltage? So in that case you mean the car doesn't even CRANK? You need the starter relay to crank the engine over.
They have actually done pretty good to get as far with this as the poster described.
If that's right, and it doesn't even crank, has anyone checked the ignition switch itself?
The ignition switch is meelry an input to the TIPM and doesn't carry any significant current. The right way to check that is to simply monitor the TIPM scan data and see if crank is commanded. Depending on the exact platform some vehicles will have a crank fuse, and if you don't see the crank input in scan data first that would be the second point to check. In the shop though this diagnostic is performed almost 100% with a scan tool such as the WiTech. Aftermarket tools have gaps in the support that often leave techs without all of the information and that forces them to have to do more by hand.
Have they checked for other P codes as well?
The PCM does control the crank relay ground, but it needs to see the command to do so on the CAN bus from the TIPM. The PCM is usually only involved in the theft deterrent system in a way that has it shut the fuel off in the event of a possible theft report, or if the PCM does not recieve a go command. Even then we still have to be careful about assuming that this is indeed a theft system issue because they do not all interrupt cranking the same way if at all. If this system interrupts cranking it does so only after the third failed attempt to start during a theft detection, or if it recieves a content theft report. But at the moment a false theft detection is quite unlikely because the poster didn't give any report of a specific symptom that I would expect to see. That being said that does open the door wider for a random failure in the crank command portion of the system that controls the crank relay. For the poster to report that they don't see the command to the relay it sounds like someone has been taking a better than average approach to this.
SKIM, SKREEM uses a stand alone transciever that identifies the key and then brodcasts the go/no-go command out onto the network and the modules that need that information grab it. CTSS polls the door modules and they also have to issue a go/nogo (generically speaking don't have enough time to elaborate) So that makes the U0201 is a very important piece of information. With a loss of communication with a door module, the system cannot confirm content safety integrity and so it is possibly disallowing vehicle operation.
FYI there are fourteen modules and a total of thirteen switch inputs to them that can result in a No-Go command from the CTSS.
At this moment they need to use the bi-directional controls in the scan tool to confirm that the PCM can command the starter to crank, and if so then concentrate on why it isn't either being told to, or allowed to crank the engine.
#4519 of 4850 Re: From the answers.... [thecardoc3]
Oct 01, 2013 (6:51 pm)
I have a little more time to address this diagnostic. What they are dealing with in this random no-start isn't uncommon today as far as how complicated things can get. What makes it even tougher is you only have the short period of time that the no-start is occurring in order to collect data and begin to try and analyze the problem, once it starts there is nothing else to find until the next event occurs.
One of the first screens that the factory scan tool opens up after it automatically ID's the vehicle is a communication screen. The scan tool actually only communicates with the TIPM and everything else that occurs relies on the TIPM actually making the data request and transferring it to the diagnostic CAN C bus. Any bi-directional requests made by the technician via the scan tool have to be processed and then passed on to the appropriate module by the TIPM. Chrysler typically used three data buses in 2008. The class C diagnostic which again is only for communication between the TIPM and the scan tool, a high speed CAN C bus where you would find the PCM, ABS, SRS, TCM, (essentially all of the most critical modules). The CAN B bus or low speed bus which has all of the non critical modules which includes the SKIM/SKREEM, RKE and all of the door modules. The TIPM lists all of the modules that are written into its vehicle build configuration list on that opening screen. Each module then is shown to either be communicating on its assigned data bus and the page also reports if any of the modules have codes set in them. (BTW I do an entire class on communication diagnostics devoted to O.E. GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles, there is no time to cover that kind of information here)
Aftermarket tools don't do any of that, and that's a problem in itself but it also puts the exclamation point on a bigger problem. A shop doesn't need that specific functionality all of the time, in fact its pretty rare to need it and we are talking maybe only five out of a hundred diagnostic routines, per manufacturer. But when you do need it, its priceless to have and a game stopper if you don't.
I have and maintain a Snap-On scan tool just like 70% of all aftermarket shops and it does a good job for all but these kinds of problems. These tools aren't cheap to own and maintain. With an initial purchase somewhere around $4000, to $12,000 depending on which tool a shop or tech chooses to purchase and then the updates (two of them) that run about $1100 a year the average shop looks at their Snap-On scan tool and if they have had them for a few years knows they $20,000 or more invested in it and then they find out it doesn't do the whole job when a problem like this Town and Country comes along. The cost difference in tooling alone was $9000 for the DRBIII and then another $6000-$7000 depending on which of Chryslers three tools a shop has. That issue alone has its own financial pressures because the StarScan and StarMobile are obsoleted and cannot be updated beyond 2010 and 2012 model years respectively. The WiTech that replaces them has to be updated yearly or it turns off, at least the other two keep working.
The choice that top shops had to make was to go ahead and buy the O.E. tools for the manufacturers that they wanted to support. For Chrysler products that was the DRBIII which worked on all of their products up to 2003, and it got phased out as the CAN systems were added to the different models. The CAN cars were initially supported by the StarScan, which was quickly replaced by the StarMobile , and then it was replaced by the WiTech. The cheapest of these tools was the laptop based StarMobile at $6000. The most expensive, and current tool is the WiTech at $7000 which not only requires updates of the software to stay current it needs them just to stay turned on. The StarScan and StarMobile while they cannot be updated at least remain functional. No matter what, without one of these tools network communication issues which that Town and Country just might be experiencing are almost impossible to diagnose. It would be surprising if the shop that the car is currently at has made this extra investment to have one or more of these tools. (Remember this gets repeated for each manufacturer that a shop tries to support) When you factor in that the need to have them is on the order of five (maybe ten) percent of visits that makes the cost to do so prohibitive if one only looks at the potential return on the investment.
As the systems get more complicated and as vehicle systems become more network and software oriented it isn't going to get easier to diagnose problems like this, its going to get harder. (Think srs49's four engineers at 200/hr for X days hard) and under the present atmosphere for auto repair there isn't any kind of return on the investment to justify even trying to be able to fix these kinds of problems. The real numbers are there are less than 100 aftermarket shops in the country that are genuinely ready to handle that Town and Country No-Start efficiently and the pressure to get what we do on a daily basis even cheaper deserves to see that number shrink. Anyone of you can rejoice in your own efforts to save some of your own money because you think its only your gain at our expense. The owners of the Chrysler T&C are the ones who are now getting to see what that cost of that really is and soon (quite deservedly IMO) they won't be alone. So instead of harassing me over your right to save money any way that you can, you really should gloat it out over on that posters request for help, its what has really been being said all along.