Last post on Jun 02, 2012 at 7:00 PM
You are in the Sedans
What is this discussion about?
Chevrolet, Ford Focus, Honda Civic, Hyundai Elantra, Toyota Corolla, Mazda MAZDA3, Nissan Sentra, Kia, Volkswagen Jetta, Car Comparisons, Sedan
#1 of 296 Compact Sedans
by kirstie_h HOST
Jan 13, 2011 (9:45 am)
Here's the place to discuss and compare vehicles in this class. Feel free to suggest additions to the make/model list - I just added a few to get us started.
(Note: the Cruze selection isn't working, but will be added when it's fixed)
#2 of 296 Re: Cruze [backy]
Jan 11, 2011 (8:37 am)
The bottom line is you can always get a used luxury car for the price of a new car in the mid 20s. Thats not an issue that is specific to loaded compacts. You could argue there is no point in a base model Accord or Malibu when a 5 year old luxury car could be had for the same money. People want new cars and they buy them. They want a warranty, they want the latest styling and features and they want something that isnt likely to need repairs for years. Its silly to compare the price of any new car to an older car.
The average family sedan with an automatic doent get mid 30s on the highway, more like 33mpg. With the Cruze you can get 42mpg and with the Elantra and Focus you can get 40mpg. Thats quite a bit more than 33mpg in my book. The 3 has been a well equipped compact for many years now and it has succeeded in the US. There are always cheaper models of the Cruze and focus for people who want them but automakers feel there are many folks who dont agree with the idea that you should miss out on features just because you buy a small car. German luxury brands offer most of the same features on all their cars regardless of size- now GM and Ford are doing the same thing.
I dont consider the average $25k family midsize sedan "well equipped". A power seat and CD player dont count as well equipped in my book. If you skip GM's overprice nav you can get a Cruze with leather, sunroof, power seat, premium sound, back up sensors, USB port, heated seats, auto climate control, etc. for under $25k. Thats a pretty well equipped car for that amount.
#3 of 296 Re: Cruze [overbrook]
Jan 11, 2011 (1:29 pm)
Its silly to compare the price of any new car to an older car.
A lot of people are "silly" then, as this comparison of a new car to a used car (with more equipment, luxury, etc.) happens all the time.
You say the "average" midsized car gets 33 mpg highway. OK, let's assume you are correct about that. The average Cruze does NOT get 42 mpg highway. Any Cruze on the road today gets mid-30s highway (we are going on EPA ratings, yes?). The average new Elantra does get 40 mpg highway (EPA). Focus... let's see what the EPA ratings turn out to be. So not much difference between an average mid-sized (I4) car and the average Cruze in highway fuel economy.
We will have to agree to disagree on what is well equipped. IMO a mid-sized car with leather heated seats (front and back), moonroof, auto climate control, Bluetooth, 17" alloys, and many other features is "well equipped" and can be had for just over $25k MSRP. If that is not "well equipped" to you, fine.
It's really a very simple point I am trying to make; not sure why there is so much consternation over it. The point is, the higher the price of a car, the more alternatives there are at the same price or below. Not so many good options for $15k-20k. But lots more at $25-27k. Many buyers (myself included) have a particular budget in mind when shopping for a car and will consider any car that meets or exceeds their needs within that budget--compact or mid-sized, hybrid or non-hybrid, new or used. Not all buyers shop like that, but I believe many do.
#4 of 296 Re: Cruze [backy]
Jan 13, 2011 (8:12 am)
Who said the LTZ would be the volume model for the Cruze? I surely didnt. All your assumptions are based on the LTZ trim which is probably going to be the lowest volume trim for the Cruze. I dont think there is a HUGE market for $27k Cruzes or $26k Mazda3's or $28k Focus' BUT that doesn't mean they shouldn't be offered. If you personally don't like loaded small cars, don't buy one. I don't understand why anyone would take issue with automakers even offering these cars. Again, not everyone WANTS a midsize car so the fact that you CAN get one for the same price as a Cruze LTZ may not matter to some folks. I've seen 3 LTZs on the road so far so someone is buying them. I also pointed out the Focus (and to a lesser extent Cruze) offer features that some midsize sedans dont offer so its not as simple as saying "I can get a larger, better car for the same money".
You are oversimplifying things to support your argument that there is no market for loaded compacts. I also take issue that people shop on price only and don't care about features. Sure I can get an Accord for $25k but what features will it have vs a Cruze LTZ? Those who need backseat space may go for the Honda, but those who dont care about rear seat room may opt for the car with more features and more up to date technology. I know few people that set a price target and then shop for "any car" that can be had for that amount with no regards to the individual merits of each model.
#5 of 296 Re: Cruze [overbrook]
Jan 13, 2011 (8:43 am)
Who said the LTZ would be the volume model for the Cruze?
No one did. I am glad we can agree on something... Chevy will sell few LTZs.
If you personally don't like loaded small cars, don't buy one.
I never said I don't like the idea of a loaded small (economy) car. I just don't like the idea of paying $25-27k for one when there are so many other good alternatives.
You are oversimplifying things to support your argument that there is no market for loaded compacts.
And you are putting words on my fingers. Please point to the post(s) in which I said there is no market for loaded compacts. I never said that. What I said is that a compact economy car (albeit with many options) priced at $25-27k faces a lot of competition because of the price bracket it's in. I have tried to explain that idea a few times now. I'll stop trying.
I also take issue that people shop on price only and don't care about features.
Again, I never said people shop on price ONLY. What I said was (and getting tired of having to repeat myself so much here), many people shop for cars with a certain budget in mind, and they will consider all vehicles that meet their needs within that budget. "That meet their needs" is the key phrase here... it says that price is NOT the only factor in the decision. But it's a key factor.
Here is a 3rd party opinion, from C/D's review of the Cruze in their January 2011 issue, that echoes my opinion on this subject--just to show I am not crazy nor the only person with this opinion:
As it is, our as-tested $25,460 LTZ makes as much sense as raisins on a Ritz. If you've got that sum tucked away, please tell us you're test-driving Accords, Optimas, and Sonatas...
P.S. Re your comment stating the only reason the Elantra gets 40 mpg is because of its lower weight and no other special features... the weight savings is responsible for only 10% of the fuel economy improvement in the 2011 Elantra vs. 2010. For details, please see:
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/about-hyundai/news/Corporate_2011_Elantra_Compact_Seda- - n_Release-20101118.aspx
#6 of 296 Re: Cruze [m6user]
Jan 13, 2011 (8:04 am)
Ford really hasnt released any weight figures for the Focus to my knowledge but if its close to the weight of the Cruze I dont see any way it can exceed the Cruze's mileage by a large margin. The Elantra is about 300lbs less than a Cruze LTZ and that is one of the main reasons it can hit 40mpg without any special features. I dont see any way the Focus will be matching the 29/40 of the Elantra when the Fiesta gets that mileage and weighs hundreds of lbs less than the Focus. My guess for the best Focus is around 27/40 with other models getting 37-38mpg on the highway. Let's not forget the Focus has the largest standard engine in the class and the most hp in class. Getting 40mpg from a 2L engine is no small task.
#7 of 296 Re: Cruze [overbrook]
Jan 13, 2011 (10:45 am)
I didn't say the Focus would exceed the Cruze mpg by a "large margin". I said they will probably come in a little better than the Cruze even though Ford has been touting 40mpg hwy.
For example, the Prius weighs a few hundred pounds less but has hugely better mpg. I know it's a hybrid, but my point is that weight is not the only determining factor in MPG. If I carry a fairly heavy passenger in my car does my hwy mpg automatically drop 3-4 mpg? Hardly. There are many factors in gaining mpg so emphasising weight(plus or minus) as the main reason just doesn't tell the whole story. Gearing, aerodynamic drag, tires, engine size, engine type AND weight affect hwy mpg. I would argue that aerodynamic drag and gearing affect hwy mpg more than weight does. Weight probably weighs(no pun intended) more heavily on the city mpg.
#8 of 296 Other vehicles to add
Jan 13, 2011 (1:05 pm)
and of course the Cruze when it is possible to add it
We did have an "Economy Sedans" discussion (actually still do)... maybe that one should be shut down in favor of this one? I think the purpose of that one was to discuss cars like Civic, Corolla, Focus, Elantra, ...
#9 of 296 Re: Other vehicles to add [backy]
by kirstie_h HOST
Jan 13, 2011 (1:57 pm)
i will toss some of those up there (remembering there's' a limit to the # we can list).
That discussion is appropriate, but decided since some vehicles have been added, others are outdated, and the price range listed isn't really up-to-date, it'd be easier to start fresh than tinker with that one.
(edit: Forte is broken for now too)
#10 of 296 Re: Other vehicles to add [kirstie_h]
Jan 13, 2011 (2:18 pm)
Is the limit 9? If so, I guess once the Cruze and Forte are added that will be a good list. The others (Impreza, Lancer, SX4) don't have nearly the market share as the ones on the list although the Impreza in particular is a very nice compact and sells pretty well.