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2 or 300,000mile Club?

38 messages,  Last post on Dec 02, 2011 at 6:47 AM

You are in the Subaru Legacy & Outback Forum.

What is this discussion about? Subaru Legacy, Subaru Outback, Car Buying, Car Comparisons, Wagon, SUV

Messages Page 2 of 4

#9 of 38 Re: curious to hear updated comments from owners years later [gimmestdtranny] by igozoomzoom

Jan 02, 2011 (4:28 pm)

Replying to: gimmestdtranny (Jan 02, 2011 1:37 pm)
I can't remember exactly what caused the problem, but a significant number of Subaru Flat-4s suffered "catastrophic failure" on the 2001-2004 models! The 2005-present Flat-4 is rock solid reliable...the problem was definitely addressed and doesn't affect any models after 2004! Consumer Reports reliability ratings (based on data collected from owners) fully supports this- the 2001-2004 4-cyl Legacy/Outback are rated "Much Worse Than Average" in the 'Engine- Major' reliability category. The 2005-present models are rated as MUCH BETTER THAN AVERAGE in all categories!
 
Prior to that engine flaw, Subaru was generally regarded as one of the most reliable brands you could get! It was right up there with Honda and Toyota.
 
But even Honda's reputation has taken some hits in the last decade! No less than three separate instances of widespread transmission failures affected hundreds of thousands of 1999-2004 Honda and Acura models!
 
The '99-'01 Odyssey was the and V6 Accord from the same period was the first. A bearing in the 4-speed automatic could break apart and clog the fluid lines, resulting in erratic shifting and total failure soon after.
 
Then the '00-'03 Acura TL, '01-'03 Acura CL and '02-'03 Odysseys with a newly designed 5-speed automatic started going thru transmissions like Kleenex! Some vehicles had as many as FOUR transmission replacements before the problem was finally fixed! Acura alone replaced well over 50,000 units just on their cars. I had a friend who bought a 2003 TL Type-S new in early 2003 and within nine months and 12k miles, he was on his THIRD transmission! He used the Georgia Lemon Law to force them to buy the car back.
 
And finally the '03-'04 Odyssey and Pilot had yet another problem with their 5-speed automatic. Honda issued a recall this time. They also extended transmission warranty coverage to 7yrs and 100k miles on all these models. There was at least one class-action suit brought by Odyssey owners that extended the warranty ever further.
 
Prior to 2000, I would've laughed in your face if you told me that Honda would have so many transmission failures due to their own design flaws. Honda is actually one of the only (if not THE only) manufacturer that designs and manufactures their own automatic transmissions just for use in their own vehicles. Companies like GM build millions of transmissions for their own vehicles and to supply numerous other automakers. Toyota-owned Aisin does the same. But Honda makes their own! I'm surprised they didn't re-think that after all this???
 
I'm just glad that Soichiro (Honda) was already dead because this would've killed him! But five years later and nobody holds it against them! You never hear of anyone afraid to buy a new Honda because the transmission might fail...

#10 of 38 Re: curious to hear updated comments from owners years later [igozoomzoom] by gimmestdtranny

Jan 02, 2011 (6:49 pm)

Replying to: igozoomzoom (Jan 02, 2011 4:28 pm)
I thought that the Civic autos also had some problems during those time periods you mentioned. I had heard about the Odyssey trannys, but surprisingly only recently. I guess because the van has never been in my sights to own. Had it had AWD with a turbo dsl it certainly would have been tho.
 
Apparently Hyundai makes their own new 6 sp auto for the Elantra. Don't know if they intend to sell it elsewhere. Use in Kia no doubt, but beyond that i wonder.
 
It is incredible isn't it? All those Honda auto failures and all is forgiven now. I have heard of owners having to pay for 2 and 3 of 4 tranny re and re's. I have never liked that even Honda forces a customer to get heavy with them before the do the right thing anf own up to such a known problem. Toyota did exactly the same thing with the 5 sp manuals in the Matrix and Vibe. The did "Good Will" but put the same faulty design back into the car just to fail again at much the same (very low mileage failure...60k mi) IMO that is not honouring a wty or a GoodWill gesture. If they replace it with the new and improved design, now THAT is Good Will..
To chg owners 2 and 3 times full pop on a known faulty design is reprehensible.
 
edit - Very interesting to know about the 2005 and newer being safe and good bets. Thanks. Can u say the same about their autos and manual trannys?
  
What is your opinion on this new CVT they are using now, with a 6 position paddle shift. They claim it is a 180k mi tranny. But darn, at 6000 bucks to replace at that time, all of sudden, 180k doesn't sound that wonderful.
  
IMO, if a tranny has issues handling higher torque demands, that just strikes me as a less than great design. Does it have to be made that much bigger and heavier (or use prohibitively expensive metallurgy content) that to produce in mass numbers and afford reasonable longevity while keeping higher torque demands under wraps, it doesn't add up? Or throw handling weight bias off that even that becomes a factor? As I'm sure u know, the higher torque flat 6 uses the 5 sp auto (non CVT).

#12 of 38 Re: curious to hear updated comments from owners years later [igozoomzoom] by ateixeira

Jan 03, 2011 (9:59 am)

Replying to: igozoomzoom (Jan 02, 2011 4:28 pm)
I can't remember exactly what caused the problem
 
Head Gaskets.
 
They starting using new design/materials and that fixed the problem. FWIW Subaru covered most of those under a 7/100 extended warranty campaign.
 
The new block design that just debuted in the Forester goes one step further - the cooling for the block and head do not share cooling lines - so there are no holes in the gaskets for those.
 
So it was fixed, and now they went a step further to ensure a problem like that never happens again.

#13 of 38 Re: curious to hear updated comments from owners years later [ateixeira] by xwesx

Jan 03, 2011 (12:16 pm)

Replying to: ateixeira (Jan 03, 2011 9:59 am)
Well, I am not sure I would go so far as to say it was "fixed," but the changes (improved durability of gaskets, and required stop-leak additive) did reduce the occurrence of "premature" failures.
 
Only a redesign of the block (which they are now implementing as you mentioned) will truly fix the problem. That said, many of us (you and I included) have not been affected by premature failure, even on pre-improvement engines so, while the problem was widespread, it was not a sure-fire death blow.

#14 of 38 Re: curious to hear updated comments from owners years later [gimmestdtranny] by xwesx

Jan 03, 2011 (12:21 pm)

Replying to: gimmestdtranny (Jan 02, 2011 6:49 pm)
Can u say the same about their autos and manual trannys?
 
The 4EAT and the 5/6 speed manual transmissions have been very reliable for a long, long time. There was one or two model years (1999 for sure, at least in the Outback), that seems to be more prone to 4EAT failures (and they did make some changes to the unit that year), but generally they are quite solid. In fact, about the only complaint I hear about the 4EAT is simply that they don't have more gears.
 
I know several WRX owners who have fried their 5-speeds because they abused them (badly!), but no complaints otherwise.

#15 of 38 Re: curious to hear updated comments from owners years later [xwesx] by ateixeira

Jan 03, 2011 (12:47 pm)

Replying to: xwesx (Jan 03, 2011 12:21 pm)
Mostly 2002 models. For MY2003 Subaru added a force-limiting clutch to prevent clutch drops, and complaints plunged.
 
I think that issue was more due to modded engines that made more than stock power coupled with clutch abuse.

#16 of 38 Re: curious to hear updated comments from owners years later [ateixeira] by xwesx

Jan 03, 2011 (1:07 pm)

Replying to: ateixeira (Jan 03, 2011 12:47 pm)
Now that you mentioned that, I recall a fair buzz about "clutch judder" on the 5mt for a while, but that was not a transmission issue - it was a problem with the clutch plate material.
 
I think that issue was more due to modded engines that made more than stock power coupled with clutch abuse.
 
Yes, for the WRX issues I was citing, every single one had boosted the power output prior to frying the transmission. Not that they were kind to the transmissions beforehand....

#17 of 38 Re: curious to hear updated comments from owners years later [xwesx] by ateixeira

Jan 03, 2011 (1:17 pm)

Replying to: xwesx (Jan 03, 2011 1:07 pm)
AWD launches are brutal on the stock clutch.
 
I say if you modded beyond the stock 227hp, say 250+, you should automatically replace the stock clutch, preemptively.

#18 of 38 Re: curious to hear updated comments from owners years later [xwesx] by gimmestdtranny

Jan 03, 2011 (1:29 pm)

Replying to: xwesx (Jan 03, 2011 1:07 pm)
Ahh, I am glad u mentioned that. I have been having negative feelings about Subes for the two reasons, the leaky motor (altho i don't recall that being an issue if u go back 20 years, back when there were Loyales and around the time Legacy made its first appearance). But I'm not sure, I still never heard of really high miles boxers till reading on this thread.
 
And the other pause I had was a jittery clutch. My friend had an Impreza 5 sp about 10 years or so ago..mighta been an 01 or 02? And he loved the car but sold it because of that being such an annoyance. And it caused him to be sworn off Subaru for life i think. In fact, he traded it for a 2WD auto Ranger p/u truck
 
so that oughta tell u how much he hated the Imp.
 
So this is such good info to know! I needn't be cautious about their manuals then. He asked them and they refused to do anything about it if i recall (altho i am not certain he told me the whole story) I don't think he abused it and i never smelled a hot clutch when we crawled underneath and had a smell.
 
So did Subaru ever honour the changing of the clutch to the new material? Or what year did they finally figure it out? Did they use new flywheels also or was that not required to even turn them?

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