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Comparing Older Domestic Engines

87 messages,  Last post on Nov 23, 2010 at 9:55 AM

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What is this discussion about? Chevrolet, Ford, Plymouth, Coupe, Convertible, Truck, Sedan, Wagon

Messages Page 6 of 9

#48 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [Mr_Shiftright] by isellhondas

Sep 09, 2010 (8:51 am)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Sep 09, 2010 8:38 am)
You are talking about the "Y" blocks and I think you picked a great example.
 
They weren't really "bad" engines but they weren't great either.

#49 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [isellhondas] by andre1969

Sep 09, 2010 (9:04 am)

Replying to: isellhondas (Sep 09, 2010 7:54 am)
I totally agree with you. The small block Chevies dominated in the mid-fifties.
 
I remember in the old Consumer Reports tests where they'd pit a Chevy, Ford, and Plymouth against each other as the "low priced three", the Chevy V-8 would always win...from 1955-57, at least. In 1958 though, things definitely changed. Plymouth quit messing around with those little V-8's and went to the 318 as the standard V-8, with 225 hp for the 2-bbl setup, 250 for the 4-bbl. There was a dual quad with 290 hp, but it was Fury-only. And, from what I recall, the Chevy 348 that came out that year was nothing to brag about. torquey yes, but heavy and not the most sophisticated thing in the world. It would go on to be quite powerful in some forms, especially with the 409. But in base form, it was pretty lame. 250 hp, and that's with a 4-bbl carb! And at that point, the cars were really getting too big and heavy for the 283.
 
I always wondered why Mopar never bothered to do much with the 318, as far as performance goes. The had the dual quads for the Fury for a couple years, but then pretty much devoted performance to the big-blocks. Even the mild 318-4bbl went away after 1961 or so, when it was up to 260 hp, leaving just the 230 hp 2-bbl. Mopar did mess around with a hot little 273 wedge from 1964 to around 1967, which put out 235 hp, and there was the famous 340 that put out 270 hp with a 4-bbl, and was under-rated enough that in the gross-to-net transition, it only lost about 10%, while many other engines dropped 25% or more. The 6-pack put out 290. And in the 1970's, the 360 could be had in some comparatively hot versions.
 
But overall, it just seems like Mopar never put the performance effort into the smallblock that Chevy and Ford did. If you're comparing the everyday cars that most people bought back then, then a Fury with a 230 hp 318 would usually have no trouble taking on an Impala with the 250 hp 327, or the later 255 hp 350. But, if you wanted more performance, Chevy would just let you get a more powerful 327 or 350. Mopar would force you to go big-block.
 
The 318-4bbl did continue in export markets though, and it did come back in the US around 1978 or so, mainly as a California option where the 318-2bbl wouldn't cut it, and then, eventually, as a copcar-only motor.
 
If the 318-4bbl was putting out 260 hp in an era when the 361's and 383's were often starting at only 265-270, maybe that was part of it...they just didn't want to step on the big-block's toes?

#50 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [andre1969] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Sep 09, 2010 (9:10 am)

Replying to: andre1969 (Sep 09, 2010 9:04 am)
The 318 was the "bread and butter" engine---the workhorse, the willing slave for the entry-level V8 market. It also served in many variations of the good ol' Dodge pickup.
 
A Mopar V-8 from the 60s mated to a Torqueflite 8 transmission is about the most indestructible engine/trans combination of that era. The only real downside was their weight and their desire for gasoline, which was prodigious. With AC on, and in traffic, you'd be lucky to get 8 to 10 mpg in a Chrysler 300 with a 383.

#51 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [Mr_Shiftright] by berri

Sep 09, 2010 (6:10 pm)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Sep 09, 2010 9:10 am)
My dad was a Mopar man. He always said that Ford's nickle and dimed you to death and if you held a GM more than a few years it would catch up with the Ford maintenance cost due to some kind of major failure. I don't know though, I remember as a kid he had some good, and some not very good Mopars.

#52 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [Mr_Shiftright] by isellhondas

Sep 09, 2010 (6:51 pm)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Sep 09, 2010 8:38 am)
Before my time but Packard and Hudson made some tough flatheads.
 
I helped a guy pull a Packard 8 cyl head off an engine one time and almost broke my back!

#53 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [isellhondas] by hpmctorque

Sep 09, 2010 (8:05 pm)

Replying to: isellhondas (Sep 09, 2010 6:51 pm)
I you opinion, how did the independent's straight eights compare with the Pontiac, Oldsmobile and OHV Buick straight eights? Criteria would be power, fuel economy,reliability, cost of maintenance, smoothness and driving characteristics?

#54 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [berri] by andre1969

Sep 10, 2010 (5:15 am)

Replying to: berri (Sep 09, 2010 6:10 pm)
My dad was a Mopar man. He always said that Ford's nickle and dimed you to death and if you held a GM more than a few years it would catch up with the Ford maintenance cost due to some kind of major failure. I don't know though, I remember as a kid he had some good, and some not very good Mopars.
 
The way I've often heard it was that a Mopar would probably start giving you troubles sooner than a Ford or GM car, and would usually start rusting sooner, leaking sooner, leave you stranded over some minor electrical problem have minor things break off, etc, but then after a few years, the GM or Ford would start racking up major repairs and would eventually catch up.
 
But then, it's always interesting to go to these classic car events at Carlisle PA, and at the Ford show, everybody talks about how much better Fords are, at the GM show, everybody loves their GM, and then two weeks later at the Mopar show, it's like Mopar can do no wrong. I've learned, for the most part, to keep my mouth shut, and not mention to the Mopar crowd that I put a GM car in the show, and vice versa. I did get outed in 2009 though, when a guy in one of my Mopar clubs saw me and my Catalina at the GM show!

#55 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [andre1969] by armes

Sep 10, 2010 (11:58 am)

Replying to: andre1969 (Sep 10, 2010 5:15 am)
Chrysler had a lot of problems with rusty cooling systems in the 50's, 60's and some of the 70's. Chrysler used to " cure " their castings outside in the weather. The hidden/unknown advantage of this was that the rust that developed in the casting would seal little porosity/sand pinhole leaks and imperfections inside and outside the casting. This would help reduce their scrap and product warranty problems. Everyone should know that it is next to impossible to stop rust in cast iron once it has started. Chryslers were prone to overheating and cooling system failures due to this rust growing and taking over the cooling systems.

#56 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [armes] by andre1969

Sep 10, 2010 (12:11 pm)

Replying to: armes (Sep 10, 2010 11:58 am)
Chrysler also used a lot of nickle in their blocks to make them stronger without having to make them heavier (Oldsmobile did this as well, and others as well, no doubt). Unfortunately, the nickle made them more prone to rusting if you went too long between coolant changes, or ran straight water through the system.
 
Now that I think about it, I've had three Mopar 318's, a '68 Dart, '79 Newport, and '89 Gran Fury, and the water pump went out on every single one. Well, the Dart might've been a 273....I never did find out the truth about that (originally a 273 car, but the seller told me it had a rebuilt 318). My two '79 New Yorkers, which have 360's, haven't had any issues...yet! I have heard that the 360 can have cooling problems though, because the water jackets between the cylinders are too narrow. Supposedly in copcars, they were often done by 80-90,000 miles. Hopefully the civvy models last longer! I'm currently at 95,000 miles on one, and around 65,000 on the other

#57 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [andre1969] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Sep 10, 2010 (12:15 pm)

Replying to: andre1969 (Sep 10, 2010 5:15 am)
Oh c'mon, everyone knows that GM ruled the world in the 1950s and early 60s and Mopar ruled in the mid to late 1960s. Without the Mustang, would anyone even care about Ford products of that era? What's left? The 55-57 T-Birds, and a few NASCAR knock-offs. Not much to say for Ford really.
 
In the prestige market, it was GM all the way up to the Dismal 80s and the Great Undoing. Neither Ford nor Mopar put up credible challenges in the luxury market IMO.

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