Ask the Car People.SM


Comparing Older Domestic Engines

87 messages,  Last post on Nov 23, 2010 at 9:55 AM

You are in the Classic Cars Forum.

What is this discussion about? Chevrolet, Ford, Plymouth, Coupe, Convertible, Truck, Sedan, Wagon

Messages Page 5 of 9

#38 of 87 Here's a comparison... by andre1969

Sep 08, 2010 (7:17 am)

to show just how bad cars got in the late 70's/early 80's. Consumer Reports did a test of a 1955 DeSoto Fireflite. 200 hp gross (probably 150 net), 291 4-bbl Hemi, and a car that weighed about two tons, and relied on a 2-speed automatic. 0-60 came up in around 13 seconds. I remember they also tested an Olds 98 and got 0-60 in around 11.5 seconds, and they also tested a big Nash in that episode with a big 6-cyl, and it came in around 15.4.
 
In 1980, Motortrend did a domestic luxury car test, and Mopar's entry was a New Yorker 5th Ave, with a 318-2bbl. All of 120 hp net. Still probably weighed around two tons, but at least was aided by a 3-speed, rather than a 2-speed automatic. And it did have the benefit of about 9% greater displacement, so torque might've been a bit better. 0-60? 14.1 seconds.
 
Progress, huh? The main reason, I guess, that this test pops into my mind is that it's a comparison of two cars that are very close in weight and displacement, and look what 25 years of supposed progress gets you! I guess I can cut the 1980 engine some slack though, as it had to contend with emissions restrictions.

#39 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [andre1969] by isellhondas

Sep 08, 2010 (8:46 am)

Replying to: andre1969 (Sep 08, 2010 7:02 am)
The 501's were extremely rare.
 
I'm not sure what H.P. my buddy's 57 Dodge had but it sure surprised a lot of people. It didn't handle or stop well at all but could it ever blast off the line!
 
When driven agressively it got about 7 MPG as I recall.

#40 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [isellhondas] by andre1969

Sep 08, 2010 (8:52 am)

Replying to: isellhondas (Sep 08, 2010 8:46 am)
Yeah, I think the 501 was mainly a race engine. Y'know, 7 mpg, when driven aggressively, really doesn't sound that bad, given the performance and the fun you can have getting aggressive with it. I've managed to get the 360 in my '79 5th Ave down into the high 8's.

#41 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [andre1969] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Sep 08, 2010 (9:05 am)

Replying to: andre1969 (Sep 08, 2010 6:12 am)
When we were street racing in the 60s, I never, ever saw a Mopar beat a Chevy in a race, given stock engines and street cars. It simply never occurred to us that this was even possible. The 265/283/327 absolutely dominated the street scene. One BIG reason is that few Mopars came with stickshifts!!
 
Yes, sure, there may have been certain lopsided theoretical matches one could make up---a Chrysler 300 vs. a Chevy powerglide station wagon? Absolutely, no contest. But in the "real world", the only kids who raced Mopars were the ones who got stuck with them for one reason or another. Drag racing with push-buttons or tiny levers sticking out of the dash? Oh, man.
 
Oh wait, I take that back. I DID see a '53 Dodge Cranbrook with fluid drive beat a Mercedes 190 at Rockaway Beach....barely.....
 
But more to your point---yes, the Chevy short block was cheap, small, light and for a couple hundred bucks you could build a giant-killer. Modifying a Hemi of the time (not the legendary "Hemi") was a PITA. Nobody made any *serious* aftermarket goodies for them, so only the pros could modify them for drags or those crazy road races in Mexico. (Chrysler did well in those long distance events).

#42 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [Mr_Shiftright] by isellhondas

Sep 08, 2010 (9:52 am)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Sep 08, 2010 9:05 am)
Few people have as much respect than I do for small block Chevy engines but I saw a couple of instances when a Mopar just blew a Chevy away.
 
I saw a Belevedere with the 383 "B" engine literally blow the doors off a VERY fast 327/300HP 4 speed Impala one time. I was the guy driving the Chevy. It took a LOT to whip my Chevy but he did it in grand fashion!
 
Another time I watched a 426 Super Stock Dodge make a 409 Impala look like it had a 6 cylinder.
 
With a Torqueflight, you didn't need to be punching any of those buttons either. You just stood on the gas and held on tight! a Torqueflight didn't take back seat to a stick, really. They were a tremendous transmission!
 
Having said this, I will always be a GM fan especially when it comes to Chevys and I'll take a Chevy over anythin Mopar.
 
They do deserve a lot of respect however for building some damm fast and powerful cars.

#43 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [isellhondas] by andre1969

Sep 08, 2010 (10:54 am)

Replying to: isellhondas (Sep 08, 2010 9:52 am)
Few people have as much respect than I do for small block Chevy engines but I saw a couple of instances when a Mopar just blew a Chevy away.
 
I have an old Mopar police car book that has Michigan State Police car tests from 1979-1989, although it does make mention, here and there, of older cars and newer cars.
 
In the earlier years, the Mopars were always in the lead with performance. Now in 1980, the Dodge St. Regis got ragged on by the CHP, but that's because California banned the 360, so they were forced to use 318-4bbls, and a lot of the cops were suffering "big block withdrawal", as these 1980 models were replacing models that were several years old, sporting ~250 hp 440's that could still break 130 mph.
 
But the 360-4bbl pretty much embarrassed the Chevy 350-4bbl in police cars in 1979-80. It was canned for 1981, but even the 318-4bbl was comparable, sometimes quicker, than the 350-4bbl. And Ford back then was pretty much a non-contender, as the 302 was a dog, and even the 351 wasn't so hot.
 
Chevy really didn't start to regain on Mopar until 1985 in police car tests. And ironically, 1985 was the year that the 318 went from a Carter 4-bbl to a Rochester Quadraflood. It was sabotage, I tell you!
 
By 1989, the Caprice, thanks to a TBI 350 that put out around 200 hp and a 4-speed automatic and 3.42:1 axle ratio, managed to offer about the same performance as a 1979 St. Regis with a 195 hp 360-4bbl, 195 hp, and somewhat tame 2.94:1 axle.
 
I don't think they'd surpass the 1978 Fury/Monaco, though, until they started putting the LT-1 350 in the cars for 1994. But by then, they surpassed it by a long shot.

#44 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [isellhondas] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Sep 08, 2010 (3:05 pm)

Replying to: isellhondas (Sep 08, 2010 9:52 am)
Oh you guys are talking about 60s Mopars. Entirely different animals.
 
We were talking about 50s engines.
 
Everyone knows Mopar ruled the streets in the mid to late 60s.

#45 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [Mr_Shiftright] by andre1969

Sep 08, 2010 (4:10 pm)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Sep 08, 2010 3:05 pm)
Everyone knows Mopar ruled the streets in the mid to late 60s.
 
I'd expand this to include the 1970's as well. Once it got to the point that the fastest Big-Three car was a Duster with a 360, and it would beat a Corvette, you KNOW it was over for GM!
 
Of course, performance was a bit of a salty word after 1971, and became downright dirty after 1973, so while Mopars (with the right engine of course) might have ruled the streets, GM ruled the showrooms.

#46 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [Mr_Shiftright] by isellhondas

Sep 09, 2010 (7:54 am)

Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Sep 08, 2010 3:05 pm)
Yes, somehow we drifited from the 50's to the 60's.
 
I totally agree with you. The small block Chevies dominated in the mid-fifties.
 
Ford's 292 and 312 engines were OK but a 265 Chevy could whip either one.

#47 of 87 Re: Comparing Older Domestic Engines [isellhondas] by Mr_Shiftright HOST

Sep 09, 2010 (8:38 am)

Replying to: isellhondas (Sep 09, 2010 7:54 am)
Some engines get it "right"-- right out of the box (Chevy small block, for one)
 
Some need tweaking and development (Ford 260-289-302) to achieve full potential and overcome some weaknesses.
 
Some need DECADES of tweaking and development (Buick V-8 later used by Rover) to achieve mediocrity at best.
 
And some of course are evolutionary dead-ends. They did their job but do not develop (Ford V-8s from the 50s, for instance).

Messages Page 5 of 9

To POST a message, please Sign In.

Advertisement

Browse by Category

Browse by Vehicle
   View All Vehicles

Browse by Board
Browse by Topic
View All Topics

Edmunds Community

Advertisement