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2010 Toyota 4Runner Recall Concerns

21 messages,  Last post on Nov 12, 2010 at 10:18 AM

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What is this discussion about? Toyota 4Runner, Toyota, Car Buying, SUV

Messages Page 3 of 3

#12 of 21 Re: 2010 Toyota 4runner Engineer Concerns [friedgreen] by tidester

Apr 27, 2010 (10:10 pm)

Replying to: friedgreen (Apr 27, 2010 8:40 pm)
That's interesting. Shielding could be an issue but that implies that Toyota would have made changes at some point with regard to shielding and that no other manufacturer would have made similar changes. Typically, such changes would be for the purpose of cutting production costs and, when one company does that, others follow suit promptly in order to remain competitive.
 
You said it was a loaner vehicle. Does that mean they were loaned from the same physical location? If so, that alone would seem to explain the proximity of those two events.
 
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

#13 of 21 Re: 2010 Toyota 4runner Engineer Concerns [tidester] by friedgreen

Apr 28, 2010 (5:04 am)

Replying to: tidester (Apr 27, 2010 10:10 pm)
You said it was a loaner vehicle. Does that mean they were loaned from the same physical location? If so, that alone would seem to explain the proximity of those two events.
 
Yes, same loaner from same dealer, different days but same week, I think; different customers, same overhead electrical lines, same effect (UA). First drivers safely stopped vehicle. Second drivers and passengers were killed in resulting accident. I wish I could find that report again and post it--it was a very informative report on Toyota UA.
 
The point of the report was that the same vehicle experienced UA while passing under the same electrical lines on separate days with separate drivers. In a way, if we were running a lab experiment, you might say we were isolating for effect: the only constants were the vehicle and the overhead electrical lines.
 
In any event, my gut tells me (for whatever intuition is worth) that there is an issue: what the problem is, the magnitude, frequency and proper correction are all things about which I am not qualified to speculate. I think it's human nature to ignore what one does not want to see. After years of training mules, I've learned one thing for certain: the only ones that hurt you are the ones whose dangerous behaviors were ignored and explained away as outliers (oh, he's just in a bad mood; she doesn't like to get brushed; it's the weather). If a mule switches its tail at you, you're gonna get kicked. I think the same about the UA problem, and it's time for Toyota to step up and address the issue in a through and scientific manner, with outside investigators and a peer-reviewed report.

#14 of 21 Re: 2010 Toyota 4runner Engineer Concerns [friedgreen] by tidester

Apr 28, 2010 (12:57 pm)

Replying to: friedgreen (Apr 28, 2010 5:04 am)
Thanks for that info. If you do find that report again, let me know. I'd love to see it!
 
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

#15 of 21 Re: 2010 Toyota 4runner Engineer Concerns [tidester] by tsu670

Apr 28, 2010 (3:31 pm)

Replying to: tidester (Apr 27, 2010 12:14 pm)
Mr. Anwyl's open letter to Mr. LaHood was interesting reading, but carefully suggesting that the problem could very well be driver error as in the Audi case decades ago does a disservice to Edmunds.com readers.
 
He points out the growing number of reports filed with DoT after Toyota announced problems with floor mats and sticking pedals and the media got ahold of the issue. It is almost as if he is implying those newer reports are bogus or at least suspicious. It could very well be, however, that most people didn't know until then that there was a government database whereby they could file reports of their own experiences. I certainly had no idea of the database until then.
 
Much has changed since those cases of unintended acceleration in Audi models, the most significant being the design of modern electronic accelerator systems.
 
On the Toyota website is a video of Kristen Tabar, general manager of Electronic Systems 2 Department at the Toyota Technical Center, talking about how safe their ETC system is Toyota video on ETCS (you'll need to click the Play button under the video).
 
What Ms. Tabar doesn't say in her video is how Toyota is installing a software upgrade in all the recalled vehicles. The new software overrides the electronic accelerator when the brake pedal is depressed.
 
She does discuss how any "variances" detected by the electronics cause the system to go into fail-safe mode, but fails to mention that the data is not necessarily stored in the Event Data Recorder (EDR). Toyota has been criticized for knowingly NOT storing certain information in the EDR so it can claim plausible deniability in court cases brought against it.
 
It just goes to show how the company has been oh so careful in denying the problem is in their electronic throttle control system (ETCS) for the simple reason that almost all of its vehicles produced during and since the past decade would most likely need to be recalled. A recall that massive could very well break the company, and that would be a very poor outcome.
 
Meanwhile, and this is what really stings, we still can't be sure the recall has cured the problem. Before submitting this reply I paid another visit to the Office of Defects Investigation complaint database. What follows is a report filed on March 18, 2010. It isn't the only one like it; there are some other post-recall incidents, as well.
 
(Sorry for the all-caps; that's the way it is stored on the database):
 
Make: TOYOTA
Model: CAMRY

Year: 2009
Complaint Number: 10320920
Summary:
MY 2009 TOYOTA CAMRY. UNTIL TODAY, I THOUGHT THIS MIGHT BE A BIG HOAX, BUT IT HAPPENED TODAY AT 2:55 PM ON MY WAY TO WORK. MY CAR ACCELERATED WITHOUT WARNING. I FORTUNATELY WAS ONLY TRAVELING ON A SIDE ROAD FOR A BRIEF MOMENT AND WAS ABLE TO HIT THE BRAKES AND SHIFT INTO NEUTRAL AND THEN STOP THE CAR. ABOUT 2 WEEKS AGO I HAD THE "RECALL" CORRECTION COMPLETED. NEVER HAD AN ISSUE PRIOR TO THIS "CORRECTION"

#16 of 21 Re: 2010 Toyota 4runner Engineer Concerns [tsu670] by tidester

Apr 28, 2010 (4:50 pm)

Replying to: tsu670 (Apr 28, 2010 3:31 pm)
It is almost as if he is implying those newer reports are bogus or at least suspicious.
 
I don't think so. If you're talking about reports of unintended acceleration why would you not point out the fact that the numbers increased?
 
Be that as it may, I find it curious that a specific cause has not yet been isolated. I would think that Toyota has enormous motivation to find the root cause so I will withhold judgment on their public relations "motives" until we find out.
 
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper

#17 of 21 Re: 2010 Toyota 4Runner Engineer Concerns [tsu670] by steve_ HOST

Apr 28, 2010 (11:26 pm)

Replying to: tsu670 (Apr 28, 2010 3:31 pm)
that the problem could very well be driver error as in the Audi case decades ago does a disservice to Edmunds.com readers.
 
It was two decades ago, and the jury is still out. Literally. After ~22 years of court appeals, the original Audi SUA case is back before a jury in Illinois. Or was as of last October - haven't heard anything lately. Audi Sudden Acceleration.
 
I think that's the link that says the US, Canada and Japan also blamed the Audi SUA on operator error. But the Swedes blamed the cruise control.
 
There's more Toyota SUA talk over in the Toyota on the mend for 2010? discussion. There's more "technical" talk about SUA in general in the Unintended Acceleration - Find the Cause discussion.

#18 of 21 Re: Not worried [mobjack] by smsgtretired

May 09, 2010 (1:10 pm)

Replying to: mobjack (Apr 26, 2010 8:18 pm)
You should worry! On May 5, 2010, our 2008 Toyota 4runner exhibited sudden unintended acceleration. Wife was sitting waiting to make a right turn with foot on brake and transmission in drive. Engine speed suddenly increased and the car was out of control for about 800 feet. Nobody hurt and nothing damaged. This is our second 4runner and until this incident we loved them. Toyota came and got it and gave us a loaner. They are going to run tests, but I expect them to be skeptical just like some of the previous posts. There is nothing Toyota can do or say that will make us comfortable in this vehicle again. I was thinking about trading it for a Honda Pilot until I read that it has done it too. I think all the newer cars with throttle by wire can have this problem. We have absolutely no reason to bad mouth Toyota or any other car. However, no matter what tests they perform this problem did happen!!!! The 4runner has 21K and no returns to the dealer until this for anything.

#19 of 21 Re: 2010 Toyota 4runner Engineer Concerns [friedgreen] by smsgtretired

May 09, 2010 (1:51 pm)

Replying to: friedgreen (Apr 25, 2010 6:59 pm)
See my post where our 2008 had SUA on May 5, 2010.

#20 of 21 Re: 2010 Toyota 4runner Engineer Concerns [smsgtretired] by friedgreen

May 09, 2010 (5:38 pm)

Replying to: smsgtretired (May 09, 2010 1:51 pm)
Thank you for replying and sharing your story. My experience has been that expressing concern about SUA in the 4Runner is not well-received in certain circles. While I've not traded my new 2010 (purchased in January) it is not for lack of trying. I just cannot stomach the extreme loss in value. I am hoping for a solution from Toyota (class action induced and court enforced) which will take the car back or some other remedy reflecting the extraordinary loss in value following Toyota's total failure to tell the truth. I just keep waiting for the other shoe to drop.

#21 of 21 Re: 2010 Toyota 4runner Engineer Concerns [friedgreen] by mitch903

Nov 12, 2010 (10:18 am)

Replying to: friedgreen (May 09, 2010 5:38 pm)
Follow the money...the U.S. is only going to bite down so hard on Toyota, as the company represents billions of dollars to the U.S. economy. I think the storm is over and any lingering tort actions will only line the lawyers pockets. I don't mean to sound jaded, as I too have issues with Toyota (see forum 'toyota 4 runner transmission problems). But the more I read about other Toyota problems and experiences, including my own I'm convinced its time to sell, regardless of the loss of value and move on. I have never owned a Toyota product and when I decided to buy one, it was in no small measure because I believed the company made a reliable, well built car. Well maybe they did at one time, but regretfully I don't think that standard is met in their vehicles today....Mitch

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