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Toyota Halts Sales of Popular Models - Accelerator Stuck Problem Recall

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Messages Page 82 of 360

#803 of 3593 Re: Remember the 1990"s Audi [yanker] by larsb

Feb 05, 2010 (1:17 pm)

Replying to: yanker (Feb 05, 2010 1:13 pm)
More history and current Audi issues.
 
"Audi Investigated for Unintended Acceleration
 
Ford, GM and Toyota Also Suffer from UA Reports, But Audi Gets Top Headline
 
Recent complaints of unintended acceleration have been bad news for Ford and General Motors, but it could be much more traumatic for Audi.
 
The luxury brand has come a long way since similar accusations nearly drove it out of business in the 1980s, helped along by fabricated TV coverage courtesy of the CBS news show 60 Minutes.
 
It looks likely that the nightmare is recurring, but this time its not a corrupt TV series making up stories for ratings, but the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) heading up the investigation.
 
Monday the NHTSA stated it is investigating the 1998 and 1999 Audi A6 for a possible defect that could cause the sedan to accelerate “out of the control of the driver.”
 
Why the need to investigate? The government organization states that 16 complaints have been lodged with the agency regarding stuck throttles in cold weather, normally sub-freezing temperatures. One of the 16 complaints states that the vehicle was “fully accelerating on its own,” while another says the vehicle “suddenly began to race,” which resulted in the car running past stop signs and through intersections before the engine was shut off.
 
But the Audi cases arent isolated. Over the last two years complaints of unintended or sudden acceleration incidents have been growing. As previously mentioned both Ford and GM have been the subject of lawsuits.
 
Even the Japanese have been targeted, with the best selling Toyota Camry being investigated by the NHTSA for the same problem.
 
Looking to the past to make sense of the present, unintentional acceleration cases became more prevalent after 60 Minutes presented their one-sided coverage (actually 17 minutes of coverage) against the 5000, the A6 predecessor.
 
If youre not familiar with the 60 Minutes feature, it featured a variety of “victims” including one distressed mother, Kristi Bradosky, who had unintentionally killed her six year old son Joshua when her “foot slipped off the brake pedal onto the gas pedal accelerating the auto,” according to a statement taken by Canton, Ohio police officer Steven Zerby. Of course, the 60 Minutes episode that initially ran on November 23, 1986, titled “Out of Control,” and then ran again on September 13, 1987, declined to mention the police report, but rather took an excerpt that featured Mrs. Bradosky stating she had only pressed the brake.
 
Furthermore, the show went to great lengths in showing a “doctored” Audi 5000, set up to “lunge” forward on its own. Set up? To be clear, William Rosenbluth, an automotive consultant retained by plaintiffs in a suit against Audi, stated he drilled a hole in an Audi transmission and funneled fluid into it. The resulting filmed sequence, which featured the accelerator pedal moving downward on its own, provided 60 Minutes with critical visual “evidence” needed to cite the Audi 5000 with dangerous vehicle status. Rosenbluth said that 60 Minutes requested to film one of his tests, and that the show was fully aware of what he was doing. “My objective was to demonstrate that you could get an [unintended] acceleration,” commented Rosenbluth. Through manipulating the transmission, he managed to get the Audi 5000 to move on its own, but the 60 Minutes feature never brought to light that the car in question had been manipulated. “We were appalled that 60 Minutes put this thing on the air,” stated John Pollard, a principal investigator hired by NHTSA for its study. “It was a stunt…. It does not represent a real-life situation.”
 
While the 60 Minutes debacle is interesting history, it represented a crushing reality to the Audi brand, nearly driving it into bankruptcy. Even after the brand was vindicated by the NHTSA, and Audi told the world the truth via full-page ads in newspapers and magazines throughout North America, it took over a decade for a return to the sales levels it enjoyed pre-60 Minutes.
 
It looks likely that the nightmare is recurring, but this time its not a corrupt TV series making up stories for ratings, but the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) heading up the investigation.
 
Just like in the 5000 incidents, automakers are stating that driver error is the culprit in the majority of cases. But current plaintiff lawyers allege that the high level of electronic devices and sensors are the reasons behind the recent resurgence of sudden acceleration cases. Either way, incidents involving Ford, GM and Toyota cars will be soon forgotten while those surrounding the Audi brand will long be remembered."

#804 of 3593 Re: Remember the 1990"s Audi [yanker] by lzc

Feb 05, 2010 (1:33 pm)

Replying to: yanker (Feb 05, 2010 1:13 pm)
Miraculously, the Audi problem disappeared when they installed a brake interlock system. This prevented someone from switching from park to another gear without their foot being on the brake, suggesting the problem was a human one.
 
But even early on the evidence suggested human error was the likely culprit. No matter, Audi's business was practically destroyed in the U.S.

#805 of 3593 Re: Remember the 1990"s Audi [lzc] by anythngbutgm

Feb 05, 2010 (1:35 pm)

Replying to: lzc (Feb 05, 2010 1:33 pm)
Ya, Audi has made a comeback but it took a while.
 
I still don't think Toyota will fall as hard because they are one of the largest Automakers in the world while Audi was a bit player by comparison.

#806 of 3593 Re: Pre crash responses [jdm9] by kernick

Feb 05, 2010 (1:35 pm)

Replying to: jdm9 (Feb 05, 2010 10:44 am)
JDM9 - it sounds like you're making a real effort to help. What your saying may be proof of how the systems work when there is no UA.
 
However what you are doing does NOT prove that the ignition or shifting to N will work when UA is occurring. Example - my mouse and keyboard will bring me to any web-page I want right now. If the CPU however starts doing a certain series of tasks and locks-up, then my mouse and keyboard are not so useful. I may have to pull the plug out of the wall to try and recover.
If the ignition switch is electronic and the transmission is electronic, the sensors from that keyswitch or lever may be as useless as jiggling the mouse when the CPU locks-up and the cursor doesn't move.

#807 of 3593 Re: USA smart money [wwest] by kernick

Feb 05, 2010 (1:41 pm)

Replying to: wwest (Feb 05, 2010 11:00 am)
My statement was: "The driving public understands any item no matter how well put together and checked is made by humans." It wasn't specific to software.
 
But I agree with you, and you seem to understand software and firmware at a deeper level then most of us.
 
But now, suddenly, the whole issue has been OUTED, forced into the public eye.
 
I thought that happened in Space Oddity 2001? or the robot in Lost in Space? or the Terminator movies? I thought the message in those movies was "You better be damn sure you have a way to turn the machine off".

#808 of 3593 Re: Remember the 1990"s Audi [larsb] by graphicguy

Feb 05, 2010 (1:48 pm)

Replying to: larsb (Feb 05, 2010 1:17 pm)
larsb....don't know where that article came from, but I think it's factually in substantial error.
 
I've never heard of GM or Ford having any sort of widespread UA issues. Audi? Yes, but that was back in the 1980s. Those reports stemmed from one model....the 5000 (spiritual prelude to the A6). And of course, even more widespread is Toyota's problems.
 
In Audi's 1980s 5000 incidents, it was determined that the brake and accelerator pedals were closer together than and on a similar plane to foster "heel and toe" driving.
 
If you aren't familiar, "heel and toe" operation is something done mostly by testers and "racers" where the heel rests on the brake, while the toes are positioned over the accelerator. That allows someone to "blip" the accelerator with their toes, while holding the car at a standstill simultaneously. Thus, from a standstill, the engine could be reved to its optimum RPM range for power, and needing only to drop their "heel" from the brake to get faster launches.
 
In normal driving, operators accidentally hit the accelerator instead of the brake. Thus "unintended acceleration". The 5000 issues were mainly confined to the U.S. not worldwide, like Toyota is suffering.
 
True, Audi almost went out of business because sales of Audi 5000s dried up overnight after that bad publicity. Toyota is quite a bit larger, and is better positioned to weather this storm.
 
However, it took Audi over 5 years to win back the confidence of customers....maybe even closer to a decade. In addition, the Audi 5000, which was priced like any typical premium luxury brand, was absolutely killed in the resale department, for quite some time. And, even after Audi replaced the pedals with ones that had more differentiation between the accelerator and the brake.
 
The downside for Toyota, their recalls span many models, and more investigations persist, seemingly by the day, over electronically controlled accelerators AND BRAKING systems, in many countries.
 
I remember vividly how my older sister had bought a new Audi 5000 a few months before the UA story hit on 60 minutes (who did indeed admit they staged the incident on their broadcast), much to my late Father's dismay (who was "buy U.S.A. through and through).. There was no end to the "I told you sos" in our household over the issue.
 
My sister had her car retrofitted with the new pedals and drove it for 4 more years or so. But, the damage was done. She got a pittance for the car when she resold it because of the incident.

#809 of 3593 Re: Remember the 1990"s Audi [lzc] by sharonkl

Feb 05, 2010 (2:26 pm)

Replying to: lzc (Feb 05, 2010 1:33 pm)
Yes, brake override systems/equivalent installed did help correct Audi's issue. Most European autos seem to have presently, and stats appear good. GM had higher complaints too, and installed - incidents almost now down to low area with others. I just have not investigated which others do.
 
This research site appears to have some good information. Go to bottom box and can click on - one of selections will have a graph comparing all autos. Shows where info came from.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/2009/07/20/sudden-acceleration/
 
This is same site - appears new info added today as reports were not there last time into site - & I have not read, but must read.
http://www.safetyresearch.net/toyota-sudden-unintended-acceleration/
 
I have not checked if any of my other bookmarked sites have any new updates.

#810 of 3593 Audi comparison is flawed by anythngbutgm

Feb 05, 2010 (2:26 pm)

Not downing anyones opinion or inputs in this whole matter but to compare what happened with Audi and what's happening with Toyota is sort of misleading IMO. The thing about Audi was that beyond the accelerator issues, the brand has never been the pinnacle of reliability. Style? sure. AWD prowess? definitely. performance? Yep.
 
Quality, mechanical-wise? Even today Audi ranks in the basement as far as reliability goes. Fantastic driving cars but they are not known for reliability by any means.
 
Toyota on the other hand has had a long standing reputation and a well regarded history of being dead nuts reliable. Being dull but getting you from point A to point B for 200 thousand miles easily. People knew they could rely on their trusty Toyota.
 
Now, step away from the media hype for a second:
 
Think about this in a different way. Just because there is a spew of recalls going on here, does it mean that Toyota products still won't last as long as they always have? I mean, as far as I'm concerned (and I'm just looking at this from an outsiders POV) if I had a Toyota product that was affected, I would probably be peeved yes, but I would take it to the dealer, get it fixed and drive on. I'm sure the engine and drivetrain will still last forever, the quality of the vehicle in general (build, mechanical, interior, whatever) will still be at least to Toyota standards of the past few years, and the amount of unscheduled repairs will still be low. Toyota has always scored well in having the lowest ownership costs.
 
link title
 
My gosh, the way posters on here sound it's like every Toyota on the road is Christine or something.
 
Anyways my point is that Toyota is catching a ton of flack because they were on top for so long and up until recently it was rightly deserved. Now people are treating the situation like their cars are all of a sudden Russian Ladas or Yugos never mind Audis. It's just so over the top.
 
My .02

#811 of 3593 Re: Audi comparison is flawed [anythngbutgm] by larsb

Feb 05, 2010 (2:33 pm)

Replying to: anythngbutgm (Feb 05, 2010 2:26 pm)
anythingbutgm says, "Think about this in a different way. Just because there is a spew of recalls going on here, does it mean that Toyota products still won't last as long as they always have? I mean, as far as I'm concerned (and I'm just looking at this from an outsiders POV) if I had a Toyota product that was affected, I would probably be peeved yes, but I would take it to the dealer, get it fixed and drive on. I'm sure the engine and drivetrain will still last forever, the quality of the vehicle in general (build, mechanical, interior, whatever) will still be at least to Toyota standards of the past few years, and the amount of unscheduled repairs will still be low. Toyota has always scored well in having the lowest ownership costs. My gosh, the way posters on here sound it's like every Toyota on the road is Christine or something. Anyways my point is that Toyota is catching a ton of flack because they were on top for so long and up until recently it was rightly deserved. Now people are treating the situation like their cars are all of a sudden Russian Ladas or Yugos never mind Audis. It's just so over the top."
 
VERY well said. ( insert sound of hands clapping )

#812 of 3593 Has Toyota's brand perception eroded below that of Hummer? by revit

Feb 05, 2010 (2:41 pm)

Replying to: larsb (Feb 05, 2010 2:33 pm)

  
  
  
Has Toyota's brand perception eroded below that of Hummer? At least one survey thinks so

Messages Page 82 of 360

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