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#1962 of 3623 Re: Recent WSJ article [xrunner2]
Mar 02, 2010 (8:36 am)
w....as Ford said, they're cruise controls were pinpointed as a problem, and did a recall to rectify it. As Lentz has said, even with the floormats and sticky pedal fixes, Toyota doesn't know the cause in about 70% of reported cases.
Yet, Toyota states unequivocally that electronics/software are NOT the problem. Yet, they offer no evidence that brought them to that conclusion. Therein lies their problem.
There's been expert testimony that their electronics/software can indeed cause the problem, Toyota dismisses it flatly.
The one thing they can do, they won't do. That is install the brake over ride to their system. In some cases that's a simple reflash. In other cases, they'll have to replace the ECU/EPROM to accept the reflash. Installing the brake over ride systems won't cure their UA problem (as it sounds like they're using code from as far back as 1996, which may be faulty).. But, it will offer a simple workaround if one experiences UA in a Toyota....that is, just tap the brake pedal.
It appears that the reason Toyota doesn't want to institute this reflash for UA in their vehicles is because it would cost them too much to do so.
IMHO, you can put no price on public safety....especially given the first person testimony and facts that Toyota chooses to ignore. One life lost is 1 too many. Toyota doesn't share that view, though.
WE can't change the past. We can't bring back the lives of the CHP's family. We can't change the nightmarish experience of Ms. Smith in her Lexus.
Toyota can affect the lives and well being of those who drive their vehicles going forward, however by installing the brake over ride. Again, they see it as important, since they're installing it in their new vehicles. However, they do not want to bear the expense of doing it for the millions of vehicles that could be affected from as far back as the mid-'90s.
For the record, I don't expect them to install brake over ride of say a '96 Camry. However, it would be reasonable to expect them to do it over the vehicles they've produced....say, over the last 5 or 6 years. Before that time, it's hard to gauge the condition of a pre-2004 model. So, to me MY 2004 Toyota/Lexus vehicles would be reasonable to have the reflash done. But, they flatly refuse to do even that.
#1963 of 3623 Re: How Crisis started [lemko]
Mar 02, 2010 (8:37 am)
The blogger that referred to the UA/SUA viral publicity and pressure is entitled to his opinion. This is USA. But his own documented words do provide some psychological evidence/substantiation into his personal views and character and integrity values. His factual comments claimed can therefore be analyzed & some assumptions formed - he either does not know all the facts, or he doesn't care about the welfare of other people at all. Why? Those who do know facts, have so far been forming an entirely different view. These statistics are people, not just numbers.
#1964 of 3623 Re: Recent WSJ article [xrunner2]
Mar 02, 2010 (8:43 am)
From the WSJ article:
"When you analyze NHTSA data and remove the complaints due to the speed control deactivation switch, which we recalled in 2005, Ford's performance in this category has improved each year and our complaints have been significantly lower than Toyota's each year since 2005."
Ford has been doing something Toyota has not. At least that is how it appears.
#1965 of 3623 Re: gagrice... [iluvmysephia1]
Mar 02, 2010 (8:55 am)
Those poor people in the off-duty CHP Officer's rental Lexus. It would be awful to be riding in an out-of-control missile, one that will only stop once it's crashed in to something. And it is wrong logic to blame the driver, even an off-duty CHP Officer "who should've known how to drive better."
Do agree, wrong (kind of) to blame the driver.
Just found this thread, don't know whether this was discussed previously. But, does this Toyota issue point to the dummyfication of car driving whereby the lowest common denominator driver "can" command a vehicle down the road with minimal or no ability to solve unexpected roadway or vehicle problems? Would a car driving enthusiast who experienced the Toyota condition in say a German brand sports car be able to cope quickly and bring the car to a stop?
I had a sudden acceleration problem years ago on a 77 Chevy Caprice Classic with Cruise Control. Car was out of warrantee and I started to experience acceleration while in cruise mode. Hitting brake pedal did not cut off cruise, I had to hit the cruise button to turn off. After a few of these incidents, I went under hood and permanently disconnected the cruise. I did not take back to a Chevy dealer, nor report it.
Also had experience in a Plymouth years ago driving on 2-lane US numbered highway. Suddenly, I felt nothing under my right foot, car started slowing. Quickly pulled over on shoulder, got down on floor, discovered that gas pedal fell off linkage and then reconnected it.
#1966 of 3623 Re: gagrice... [xrunner2]
by Stever@Edmunds HOST
Mar 02, 2010 (8:59 am)
Would a car driving enthusiast who experienced the Toyota condition in say a German brand sports car be able to cope quickly and bring the car to a stop?
Say, oh, an Audi?
#1967 of 3623 Re: gagrice... [steve_]
Mar 02, 2010 (9:15 am)
Say, oh, an Audi?
Audi, Porche, whatever. But, a car driving enthusiast, not a seasoned citizen with blue/gray hair whose previous car experiences were big boat Buicks, Cadillacs, Lincoln Town cars and similar.
#1968 of 3623 Re: gagrice... [xrunner2]
Mar 02, 2010 (9:34 am)
#1969 of 3623 Re: Recent WSJ article [graphicguy]
Mar 02, 2010 (9:46 am)
The one thing they can do, they won't do. That is install the brake over ride to their system.
It is important to understand that the proposed Brake Override installation is not a fix for the problem if the problem is not understood. It is a hail Mary band-aid. As I stated in a previous post, my own test indicated that the Prius already has brake override designed in. However Prius models have still experienced UA. That tells me that the brake override relies on the computer, but if the computer is in an abnormal state causing the UA in the first place, the existence of brake override becomes a moot point.
Not saying that Toyota should not proceed with installing the band-aid update, I just would not bet my life that it will do any good.
#1970 of 3623 Re: Recent WSJ article [graphicguy]
Mar 02, 2010 (9:59 am)
"..Toyota doesn't know the cause.."
And until they do, any "reflash" might be non-productive. Incorporating new firmware routines into existing code might do no good if it is the old code itself, or a hardware design flaw within the engine/transaxle control module that allows the code execution to go awry, is found to be the base problem.
"...Toyota doesn't know the cause.."
Highly likely, VERY highly likely.
Toyota does not have full and complete access to the firmware source code and likely not even the engine/transaxle module hardware design. NipponDenso would be that resource and I am continually puzzled that Toyota/etc hasn't brought up that fact. They were willing to "expose" CTS, so why not NipponDenso, Denso US...???
#1971 of 3623 Re: Recent WSJ article [xrunner2]
Mar 02, 2010 (10:04 am)
Yes, Ford has had problems as well. Thanks for providing this link to Wall Street Journal. And their article does appear and leave reader with impression they are possibly supporting Toyota. Facts they are claiming are in past. First Edmunds Statistical Data Report gave only total complaints each manufacturer since about 2001. This does not reveal how Toyota or other manufacturers are doing now. NOTE EDMUNDS RELEASED A SECOND DATA STUDY FEB, 2010 REGARDING LAST 3-4 YEARS WHICH IS MORE REPRESENTATIVE OF COMPLAINTS.
Here is another link by NY Times and a little different analysis regarding the same information. NY Times broke analysis down even further. Good to always compare.
Here are links for the two Edmunds reports
First one -
this first report really doesn't tell me how any manufacturer is doing in recent years. Great overview report, but limited knowledge gained for my own personal evaluation .I want to know how they are recently
Second one -
this is improved f/u report as factually tells me how manufacturers are doing now. Toyota does have most complaints. Ford is second. I
can also compare to first report in certain ways but not totally. http://www.edmunds.com/help/about/press/161706/article.html
ALL OF YOU COMPARE TWO REPORTS!!!
Edmunds letter to LaHood - want SUA/UA finally resolved all manufacturers.
Crisis brought upon Toyota is result of San Diego accident with their vehicle which was a dealership loaner - was their own vehicle. Toyota has highest number per Edmunds. Is it fair? Yes, this is their auto and they must take responsibility as problems do exist with UA/SUA
for them. Facts support. Yes, Toyota has addressed in past, but solutions were not correcting. Lots of detrimental info coming forward about Toyota. This is Toyota's hot seat now. Facts reveal they knew all along and did not address even though would have been easy to do with brake override , These systems were already available to do such many years ago. Corporations do have to take responsibility for their own actions or inaction. If not addressed as documents support proof in this case, Toyota did not do. Their decisions for inaction have now reached crisis stage and are affecting their image. Toyota gambled. Toyota lost.
No one should support a corporation that decides on inaction!!! Toyota can blame only themselves for crisis situation they are in. Legally blame falls on only Toyota. And they can only blame themselves for all the bad documents/info about them coming out too. Toyota made all their decisions. It does appear Toyota took a country with free press, freedom of modern technology to disperse information quickly too lightly.
The other auto manufacturer who are just behind Toyota in Edmunds Data Report had better quickly clean house. They could be next. Remember I just sent link recently Hyundai - since all this pubilicity has already implemented brake override, despite fact their stats are good. What are the other manufacturers that don't have brake overrride systems doing?? Those with systems are at bottom of graph.