Last post on Nov 18, 2010 at 10:21 PM
You are in the Lexus LS 460/460L
What is this discussion about?
Lexus LS 460, Interior, Sedan
#15 of 24 Re: 2010 Sport Model [jtt1]
Oct 01, 2010 (4:15 am)
Boy, was I glad to find this discussion and the question about the LS 460 Sport seats -- but wish I had checked here before buying mine! Let me tell you: they are hideous, just hideous. Who could have thought that this could happen with the top-of-the-line Lexus? Bought mine in September (my wife and I have owned Lexuses since they arrived here) and sitting in the driver's seat is not just uncomfortable, but excruciatingly painful over time. This is, as you would expect, especially so in the "sport" mode suspension setting, but true as well in the other two settings. I cannot explain this. The seat feels as if it has a pipe down the middle of it, fore to aft. Perhaps some drivers have sufficient padding of their own back there to cope with this, but I doubt it given the fact that the pipe thing is what one's bottom pelvic bone (or whatever it is) rests on with no apparent padding to cushion what is going on down there. And what that is is damage: the seat in this car is bruising my bones, literally. I reported this to the dealer and the seat was immediately replaced, no questions asked. Unhappy result: no change. I think it is a defect, a very serious one, in the design of the seat. (No one who was responsible for seat design at Lexus could possibly have ridden in the seat of this car with the Euro-tuned air suspension and then allowed this out the door of the factory.) I am returning the the dealer again today in the hope that additional padding can be added to address this. If not, or if that does not relieve the agony of driving this, I have no idea what to do next. Resort to the Lemon Law?
#16 of 24 Re: 2010 Sport Model [aklein2]
by Kirstie@Edmunds HOST
Oct 01, 2010 (8:08 am)
I'm sorry that you're experiencing so much discomfort with the seats; however, Lemon Law generally only applies to safety issues, or issues that make the vehicle inoperable. I don't *think* you can use it to return the car for this particular issue.
You might have better luck by continuing, with other owners, to complain here & to Lexus.
#17 of 24 VA Lemon Law
Oct 01, 2010 (10:44 pm)
To: kirstie_h HOST
I do not think that the Lemon Law of Virginia is limited in the way you suggest. Here is the relevant text (long, but you have to read it all):
"§ 59.1-207.11. Definitions.
"As used in this chapter, the following terms shall have the following meanings:
. . .
"Nonconformity" means a failure to conform with a warranty, a defect or a condition, including those that do not affect the driveability of the vehicle, which significantly impairs the use, market value, or safety of a motor vehicle."
"Significant impairment" means to render the new motor vehicle unfit, unreliable or unsafe for ordinary use or reasonable intended purposes."
"The term 'warranty' pertains to the obligations of the manufacturer in relation to materials, workmanship, and fitness of a motor vehicle for ordinary use or reasonable intended purposes throughout the duration of the lemon law rights period as defined under this section. "
"§ 59.1-207.13. Nonconformity of motor vehicles.
"A. If the manufacturer, its agents or authorized dealers do not conform the motor vehicle to any applicable warranty by repairing or correcting any defect or condition, including those that do not affect the driveability of the vehicle, which significantly impairs the use, market value, or safety of the motor vehicle to the consumer after a reasonable number of attempts during the lemon law rights period, the manufacturer shall:
"2. Accept return of the motor vehicle and refund to the consumer, lessor, and any lienholder as their interest may appear the full contract price, including all collateral charges, incidental damages, less a reasonable allowance for the consumer's use of the vehicle up to the date of the first notice of nonconformity that is given to the manufacturer, its agents or authorized dealer. Refunds or replacements shall be made to the consumer, lessor or lienholder, if any, as their interests may appear. The consumer shall have the unconditional right to choose a refund rather than a replacement vehicle . . . . "
"B. It shall be presumed that a reasonable number of attempts have been undertaken to conform a motor vehicle to any warranty and that the motor vehicle is significantly impaired if during the period of eighteen months following the date of original delivery of the motor vehicle to the consumer either:
"1. The same nonconformity has been subject to repair three or more times by the manufacturer, its agents or its authorized dealers and the same nonconformity continues to exist; . . ."
Nothing in this text of the law supports your suggestion that the "Lemon Law generally only applies to safety issues, or issues that make the vehicle inoperable." I would appreciate your citation of any authority to the contrary. It would seem enough that there is a deficiency in the "materials, workmanship, and fitness of a motor vehicle for ordinary use or reasonable intended purposes. . . . " sufficient to " significantly impair[ ] the use, market value, or safety of the motor vehicle" that cannot be repaired after reasonable efforts to do so. Inability to sit in a car's driver's seat without physical pain or damage due to the structure or design of the driver's seat surely would constitute a "non-conformity" with a "warranty" and a "significant impairment" as described above.
I do, though, intend to continue to complain and discuss this with other owners. How this works out with my dealer, of course, is a story that remains to be told.
#18 of 24 Re: VA Lemon Law [aklein2]
by Kirstie@Edmunds HOST
Oct 04, 2010 (1:09 pm)
I don't have any interest in, nor expertise in, arguing what Lemon Law in your state may or may not cover! The law is different in every state, and I'm not even a made-for-TV lawyer. I just wanted to prepare you in the eventuality that they do not consider seat discomfort to fall under the statute in your state.
If YOUR vehicle's seats aren't like others in the same make/model, I'd say your chances are better. If all of this model have the same seat design and comfort level, I think chances are better that a bunch of owner complaints might lead to a recall and replacement instead.
Even reading that definition, I think you might have a hard time, but I don't blame you one bit for trying. It seems perfectly reasonable to be dissatisfied that you've spent a lot of money on a vehicle that isn't the least bit comfortable to drive.
#19 of 24 Re: VA Lemon Law [aklein2]
by Kirstie@Edmunds HOST
Oct 04, 2010 (1:11 pm)
Oh, I just thought of something - we have a general Lemon Law discussion on our Smart Shopper board. There are a couple of people with real legal expertise who sometimes post there in answer to people's questions, so you might swing by there and see if anyone's heard of a similar case where Lemon Law applied.
#20 of 24 kristie_h: Thanks!
Oct 06, 2010 (5:27 am)
Your point about the Lemon Law is well taken. It's an unhappy pass to be in. I feel that, if I got to put jurors in the car and have them drive up and down the GW Parkway between Old Town and Mount Vernon, the case would be a sure winner. Litigation is always an unpleasant and costly thing to get involved in and uncertain in the end. I am very frustrated, though, by the dealer's refusal to take the car back under the circumstances and the inability of its service department to do anything to solve the problem. (Maybe I should be naming the dealer somewhere in here, though I have not done that to date -- not for vengeful reasons, but to steer others to better ones in our area, of which there is at least one with whom I have had very good experiences, but for some stupid reason did not deal with this time around.) How can such a great car have such flat-out lousy seats? The proper course may simply be to trade out of the marque, because I do think all this is attributable to a design flaw, after being with it since 1990, absorb whatever financial loss is involved, and forget about it. Sad end to a long and very enjoyable (until now) affair! I'll visit the Lemon Law discussion, though, as you've helpfully suggested.
#21 of 24 Re: kristie_h: Thanks! [aklein2]
by Kirstie@Edmunds HOST
Oct 06, 2010 (9:16 am)
Well, heck! I have just the place for you to do that:
We not only have a place to submit dealership reviews, we encourage it! Just start there and submit a review - it sounds like yours is more of a "service" review than a "sales" review at this point.
#22 of 24 Re: Lexus LS460 seats a bit too hard w/not enough room for 6-footer. [muleri]
Oct 27, 2010 (3:04 am)
I know this sounds weird, but can the seats from the RX, be fitted into a LS?
#23 of 24 Back pain and LS460 seat
Nov 18, 2010 (9:33 pm)
I wonder how many people have similar problems. I bought a 2007 LS460 5 months ago. I went on a 5-hour trip and that trip caused pain in my buttock areas. Also I started to have back pain as well after that. The pain has been around for three months, I never had back pain problems in the past. Physical therapy helps a bit. But the seat keeps on causing problems (pain) even it is a 10min drive. Thank you for sharing your info.
#24 of 24 Re: Back pain and LS460 seat [jc19570]
Nov 18, 2010 (10:21 pm)
Hello ic19570. (Hope I got that right.). First of all my sympathies go out to you for your LS460 seat problems. I too owned an 09 LS460. I suffered from the first day I bought it. The leather was wrinkled and my wallet in my back pocket left an artistic impression on the seat, even if I drove only an hour or so. My back began to hurt. My whole body stiffened up, my legs ached. I had trouble getting out of the car because of the stiffness and pain. My feet started to go numb. Finally after much negation with the Service Director and Lexus they sent the seat out to be reupholstered. (They told me a whole new seat would cost $6000.) After everything was done that could be done I got rid of the car. Nothing and I mean nothing helped. Extra cushions, whatever – sorry to say nothing helped. I should mention that I am an elderly man 6’3” – 225#. I do sincerely hope that you can find someway to resolve your problem and especially alleviate your back discomfort.