Last post on Sep 10, 2013 at 11:49 AM
You are in the Toyota Corolla
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Corolla, Steering, Sedan
#580 of 667 Re: 2007 Santa Fe vs. 2010 Corolla Steering [terceltom]
Jan 12, 2011 (12:43 am)
First off, you and I can agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that. It's probably why forums like this are so beneficial.
That said - I still do not buy what your selling.
And you sound like your responding to the Ford commercials in regards to resale value. IMO, that is too funny.
Of course, you NEVER could know of the recall for pedal/floor mats as it was issued well AFTER you bought your car as you posted in #569. So, to say it was not affected at all by the recalls is inane (which is a word and not a typo). Your car had defects when you bought it that you did not know existed at the time.
The ONLY way it could not have be recalled is if the VIN starts with 'J' meaning your car was made in Japan and shipped over. But, I doubt it if you bought your car in the US or Canada it was shipped over IMO. ALL the north american cars were recalled. What state did you buy your car in and what does your VIN start with?
FACT:, my car was made at the NUMMI (thus my 1N start of the VIN) plant the last month of production there. This was AFTER the recall for the pedal and/or mates. Guess what? My car was STILL sold to me and THEN I received a recall for the pedal/mats. Do you want to know what my dealer told me when I asked them about this? I think you can figure it out...
Toyota was still making AND selling the cars with the 'bad' pedals contrary to them saying they stopped production to fix the issue. Unless, you believe everything you read in the press nowadays....All I know is that toyota paid huge fines to avoid admitting any wrong doing. Still does not mean they were right. And it does not absolve them from further legal action over their product IMO.
Still don't believe me? I can/will scan and post a link to my dated sales invoice AND a photo of my door sticker showing manufacture date AND my dated recall letter I received after buying it AND the dated invoice in which shows the dealer did the recall repair (which was done when I had the TSB EPS fix work) here if you'd like for you and others to see those facts. Not a problem. Just ask. I would redact any info that would identify me or my car or the dealer mind you. But, that does NOT change what I have in my possession.
Side note - Also, I will acknowledge know that I do not know if I still have the recall letter. I think I do. Even if do NOT (toyota should have a copy) have it I can still show when the car was made and when I bought and when the work was performed. Those dates where ALL after the recall was issued. Again, just ask.
I think all you've done is bolster my point that even test driving the car you buy will NOT show all the defects AND toyota knew they had issues with EPS but continued to sell the cars.
Another side note-
"Other documents obtained by the congressional panel through subpoena included an internal memo in which Toyota's top US executive boasted of limiting the financial impact of its product recalls through lobbying efforts."
Personally I can't see WHY someone would still buy the car after knowing of that issue. I wouldn't and toyota knew that which is why they chose the test models for customer to drive w/out the EPS issue IMO.
But, I while acknowledge your cited sources. Thank you. However, even though you found them before you bought your car I do NOT consider those sources as common places a person would look in buying a car. ESPECIALLY when a buyer does NOT know the issues existed.
Again if one does not know of a specific issue to look for then it is next to impossible to find (much like the recall of the pedals and/or floor mats)
As far as I can tell Biff has NOT said he had the TSB fix applied or not applied.
And just because you and others think the car is OK does NOT mean you do NOT have the EPS problem. You very well could be those that 'adjusted' to it.
I was not and knew there was an EPS issue with my vehicle.
#581 of 667 NHSTA complaints
Jan 12, 2011 (1:33 am)
From my count there are 297 under 2009 models and 275 complaints under 2010 under steering. Although, I can not confirm they are all related to EPS since I am not going to read them all. But considering the NHTSA started the investigation at 168 complaints(combined for '09 and '10) that is a pretty good uptick if they are related to EPS IMO.
And on here we've seen someone mention rentals have the issue as well. I doubt the rentals would ever get reported.
But seems the more people know the more complaints come in. Also, if you take into account the adage - For every 1 person that complains 10 do not then I suspect there are more out there.
Search or file complaints-
#582 of 667 Re: 2007 Santa Fe vs. 2010 Corolla Steering [sjarea]
Jan 12, 2011 (4:42 am)
I believe there is a thread to discuss "Toyota Corolla Recalls". Anyway, NO my car was not affected by the EPS problem, I made sure of that when it came in from delivery. This is something you and Biff should have done a little more extensively to avoid the problems you are now having.
#583 of 667 Re: 2007 Santa Fe vs. 2010 Corolla Steering [terceltom]
Jan 12, 2011 (10:26 am)
I used the mat/pedal recall as a relevant example here of how test driving the car one buys will not show the all the issues (just like EPS issue) because you said you had no issues at all and you made sure of it. I said I did not believe that thus my examples. I am NOT saying your car had the EPS issue. There is a difference.
And in my case even the issue I was aware of (pedal/mats) still existed on my car even though I did exactly what you did. So, no amount of research before hand would have helped me or others. The dealer still sold it and the manufacturer still made it.
Therefore it is not a stretch for me based on my experience to believe that toyota knew of the EPS issue and dealers picked test models that did not have the issue.
And since I was unaware of the EPS issue there is no way I could have detected it. It is unfeasible to require a buyer to read 1000 forums or websites before they buy. Otherwise, no one is going to go thru the effort and buy anything.
However IF that is the case and it is good enough in your view to go to those sites to be made aware of the issue then I ask you again - Why didn't toyota if it is good enough for their buyers? If you used those sites why doesn't toyota in regards to EPS? You would think if customers are going to websites and then coming in saying 'Hey don't sell me a car w/ EPS issues' then toyota should be looking at those same sites as well. If the buyer is using websites to be informed it is not a stretch to think toyota would want to use the same sites to be just as informed as their customers that step onto their lots and inquire about their product. Do you consider that to be a stretch for them? I don't.
Let me put it another way. Why are Budwiser and McDonald's so popular?
Because people know what they are getting before they buy it. Their expectations for the product are pre-set based on past experiences.
So basically a budwiser is a budwiser is a budwiser no matter where I buy it. Just like a McD's burger is like a burger is like a burger no matter where I buy it.
Therefore the toyota I test should be like any other toyota out there.
If it is NOT then the customer does not have a problem. The manufacturer does.
If you buy a six-pack of beer do you drink one can first? When you buy a burger do you take a bite before you buy it?
Now, sure, I can buy a bad six-pack or a bad burger. It happens from time to time. But, when it starts to happen to more than one buyer in more than one market area then the buyer does not have a problem.
The manufacturer does and needs to take any and all steps to correct the issue. If the manufacturer continues to sell the product then...
Again, that is exactly what happened to me based on my experience in regards to EPS. So, even if I knew of the issue and told them I did not want a car with EPS issues it still could have happened just like the pedals/mats.
#584 of 667 Re: 2007 Santa Fe vs. 2010 Corolla Steering [sjarea]
Jan 12, 2011 (1:40 pm)
sjavea states - "toyota knew of the EPS issue and dealers picked test models that did not have the issue"
Yes, It's very possible that Toyota knew of the EPS problem when you bought your car, hence that's probrably why they had you test drive a demo/EPS problem free Corolla. Even more reason why you should test drive the actual car you are going to purchase.
sjavea states - "And since I was unaware of the EPS issue there is no way I could have detected it.
Yes, there is a way you could have detected it, most people test drive their actual car before finalizing the sale.
sjavea states - "If you buy a six-pack of beer do you drink one can first? When you buy a burger do you take a bite before you buy it"?
Certainly not, but when buying a car I highly suggest you DO, test drive that car first.
Can you really compare a $1.00 burger or a can of beer to a $17,000.00 car? I don't think so.
#585 of 667 Re: 2007 Santa Fe vs. 2010 Corolla Steering [terceltom]
Jan 12, 2011 (2:45 pm)
The dollar amount is irrelevant in my examples. What I am referring to is the customer buying experience NOT the dollar amount. So, yes, one can really compare the buying experience of a burger to a car.
However, in terms of dollar amounts I do think every buyer spending a few $1K's want a car that is at least going to drive straight!!
Here are some examples of people that tested their cars and still didn't find it. You can find many more within the NHTSA database.
So, I still completely disagree with you. Testing the car does NOT ensure one will detect the EPS issue. I think it's kinda funny you won't comment of why toyota shouldn't use the websites like their customers like you say you did to find the issue. To bad they didn't because now the website the need to use (or perhaps worry about?) belongs to the NHTSA and their open investigation into EPS.
WE PURCHASED A 2010 TOYOTA COROLLA IN SEP 2009. THE DAY AFTER WE PURCHASED THE VEHICLE WE NOTICED THE EPS SYSTEM WAS VERY ERRATIC, CAUSING CONSTANT CORRECTIONS. THIS IS MORE NOTICEABLE AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS, THEREFORE ON THE "TEST" DRIVE, WE DIDN'T REALIZE THE EXTENT OF THE PROBLEM
RECENTLE PURCHASED A NEW 2010 COROLLA. LIKE OTHERS, IT SEEMED TO DRIVE FINE ON A TEST DRIVE. THE FIRST TIME MY WIFE DROVE IT ON THE HIGHWAY HER ARMS WERE TIRED AFTER 25 MILES TRYING TO KEEP IT STRAIGHT.
I PURCHASED A 2010 TOYOTA COROLLA IN DECEMBER. DURING THE TEST DRIVE I COMMENTED THAT THE STEERING FELT FUNNY, BUT THE DEALER AND I CHALKED IT UP TO THE ROAD CONDITIONS. I CONTINUE TO OBSERVE THAT THE CAR IS WEAVING BACK AND FORTH ESPECIALLY ON THE FREEWAY. IF I HADN'T SEEN THE NEWS STORY ABOUT THIS ISSUE, I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE JUST ASSUMED THAT THE STEERING WAS "TOUCHY" FOR LACK OF A BETTER WORD.
#586 of 667 Re: 2007 Santa Fe vs. 2010 Corolla Steering [sjarea]
Jan 12, 2011 (3:58 pm)
Let me ask you simple question - Now that you're stuck with your Corolla that has EPS issues, do you wish you would have taken YOUR car on a half hour test drive on the highway where you would have noticed this problem? The buyers in these examples that you site made the same mistake you did, they didn't test drive on the highway as recommended by Edmunds and other auto buying guides. Now I never said Toyota was faultless for making some troublesome Corollas with steering issues, but my point remains that if you followed correct buying recommendations you would have most likely caught this problem before you made the deal and perhaps selected another car with your specifications or even ordered one like I did.
sjarea states - "I think it's kinda funny you won't comment of why Toyota shouldn't use the websites like their customers like you say you did to find the issue. To bad they didn't because now the website the need to use (or perhaps worry about?) belongs to the NHTSA and their open investigation into EPS"
I believe I did state in my previous post that Toyota most likely new some of their new Corollas had EPS issues, but by test driving mine, I knew mine DIDN'T. On another note I believe Toyota is making all Corolla owners that complain, whole by issuing repairs/replacements to the steering of those cars affected.
sjarea states - "one can really compare the buying experience of a burger to a car"
Well I don't know about you, but I can stand to get a bad $1.00 burger and not feel too bad but if I got a bad $17,000.00 car due to my own negligence I would really be pi**ed-off.
#587 of 667 Re: 2007 Santa Fe vs. 2010 Corolla Steering [terceltom]
Jan 12, 2011 (5:17 pm)
I already told you - No I would not have detected it and that I disagree with you as I have shown in my previous posts. I was NOT negligent. Negligence implies I had some inkling that a problem existed and did further research into the issue and found there was an issue or failed not to research when I had the inkling and still bought the car and then complained. You knew the problem existed and therefore knew you should look into the issue further. I and others did not know therefore no negligence on my part could be implied.
What you might be inferring is diligence. However, even a diligent process could still not ensure the EPS issue would be detected.
If toyota most likely knew of the problem then I do not think they should wait for people to complain. They should do the right thing and issue a recall.
Any negligence would fall on a manufacturer that knows they have a steering problem and yet continues to sell those cars to unsuspecting buyers.
Maybe you or edmunds.com will e-mail/ call Steve St. Angelo, Toyota’s Chief Quality Officer for North America and ask him or someone in his office to come here and read and comment on this thread.
#588 of 667 Re: 2007 Santa Fe vs. 2010 Corolla Steering [sjarea]
Jan 12, 2011 (6:03 pm)
sjarea states - "What you might be inferring is diligence"
No, what I was inferring was negligence - as in, the failure to exercise that degree of care in circumstances.
sjarea states - "If toyota most likely knew of the problem then I do not think they should wait for people to complain. They should do the right thing and issue a recall"
I agree 100% but unfortunately and apparently you can't even trust Toyota anymore, so it's up to you and I to make sure the quality of what we buy is up to par. And personnally I wouldn't want them tinkering with my steering as I like it just the way it is.
sjarea states - "Any negligence would fall on a manufacturer that knows they have a steering problem and yet continues to sell those cars to unsuspecting buyers"
Well I guess the jury is still out if there actually is, or even if they knew about this problem, hence the investigation by the NHTSA.
sjarea states - "Maybe you or edmunds.com will e-mail/ call Steve St. Angelo, Toyota’s Chief Quality Officer for North America and ask him or someone in his office to come here and read and comment on this thread"
Don't think he'll make the time for us peons, he just wants our money $$$.
#589 of 667 Re: 2007 Santa Fe vs. 2010 Corolla Steering [terceltom]
Jan 12, 2011 (7:01 pm)
I still completely disagree with you.
Also, even looking at
10 Steps to Buying a New Car
Published: 11/08/2002 Updated: 04/30/2009 - by Philip Reed, Senior Consumer Advice Editor, Edmunds.com
It does not state anywhere in there to test drive the specific car you are buying.
The closets it gets to is:
# If you haven't already done so, test-drive all the cars you are considering buying.
Which is exactly what I did.
# Inspect the car for dents, dings and scratches before taking final delivery.
Which is exactly what I did.
Perhaps edmunds.com will update their article with your suggestion.
So, where is the negligence? Again, I completely disagree with you.