Last post on Dec 30, 2012 at 7:28 PM
You are in the Toyota Corolla
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Corolla, Steering, Sedan
#487 of 664 Re: programming [terceltom]
Sep 30, 2010 (12:07 pm)
First off let me say I mis-interpreted this forum use. I thought it was for those having EPS issues. Clearly I was incorrect about that. Also, again for the record I have had the TSB-0140-10 applied and my 2010 corolla is doing fine so far.
2nd all my posts have been about my issue and my experience. I have never said all toyotas are bad. All I am trying to do is provide constructive criticism back to toyota. I know they watch forums. Don't interrupt that as bashing. Many times in the past for various companies I have worked for my personal experience is - The customer tends to know more about the issue than the maker because the customer uses the product everyday.
"I think those of us that are informing potential Corolla buyers that the large majority of Corollas have EPS as intended and work just fine"
This is were you and I disagree Tom. I think the problem is larger. This does not mean I am bashing toyota and all are bad. However here are some very unofficial numbers I have been able to glean. If you have or can find other numbers please let me know.
From Toyota's own website from their reported monthly sales I estimate they sell about an average of 30K Corollas per month in the US. This means they sell about 360K units/year. Note from year-end 2009 they state - Corolla recorded 2009 sales of 296,874 units.
Here is what the NHTSA is saying about this issue as reported back in Feb 2010-
"Approximately 363,000 2009 Toyota Corollas and 136,000 2010 Toyota Corollas are affected, the U.S. Department of Transportation said.
The problems emerged soon after Toyota introduced a new electrical system for its power steering with the 2009 Corolla model.
Safety expert Sean Kane of Safety Research & Strategies Inc. said that in recent years complaints relating to steering have surged.
"We look at complaints from 2008, there's about two complaints related to steering," said Kane. "All of sudden in 2009 model year, you see the complaints shoot up to nearly 200 complaints related to steering issues."
Owners have reported their cars suddenly veered side to side, even though they never turned the steering wheel.
In Japan today, Toyota's CEO Akio Toyoda again apologized — the third time in two weeks - as he revealed the Corolla problem and admitted the company had cut too many corners before he took over."
Based on those reported numbers IMO the issue has the risk potential of being much higher than just 1% affected.
It is up to toyota to do what is best for their customers. I find it very hard to swallow that a CEO would say we did cut corners, but will not issue at least a voluntary recall when you admit there IS a problem. And remember this EPS unit is not just in the corollas. It has the potential to affect other makes an models(i.e Pontiac Vibe for example uses it too). If little ol' me knows this then you can bet your bottom dollar toyota knows it too.Yet toyota commercials claim they spend a million dollars an hour on safety? Uh, might want to put some money elsewhere IMO.
That is why I am suggesting toyota should do a voluntary recall at the least. And to stop telling customers they have to get used to it or it's the alignment or it's tire pressure or the crown in the road, etc. and make sure all service managers are aware of this issue too. If the company CEO said in Feb 2010 there is an issue why 6-8months down the road don't service managers know? That is a huge turn-off to their loyal customers(as I have owned and driven toyotas for about 20 yrs. A 1990 pick-up, 1994 camary and now a 2010 corolla all bought new) that are having issues and trying to work w/ toyota to resolve them. I am also very well aware that car makers are not perfect and that issues are going to arise. It is how you handle it.
I think toyota is making a huge mistake by not doing this and just having customers 'look into it' is not how it should be handled IMO.
#488 of 664 Re: programming [backy]
Sep 30, 2010 (3:06 pm)
Oh you can certainly change the steering feel of one of these pieces of fine engineering but the road handling is another issue entirely. It's going to continue to handle like a wheelbarrow with a flat tire regardless of how you try to "fine tune" the programming or swap the ECU unit. Changing the "feel" and improving road handling are 2 different things. Toyota admitted this in a press statement concerning the almighty TSB. Very easy to google and find this statement.They stated that replacement of the ECU would change steering feel but not affect road handling. I was actually surprised at the honesty.
There is a serious tradeoff with these EPS systems. You do not get something for nothing and they are trying to cut costs to improve their profits and improve fuel economy with these systems. There not going to handle as well as a good hydraulic assist rack and pinion or electro-hydraulic. Not even remotely close..
No these variable assist column mounted electric steering systems are not designed to handle well, period. You are going to feel disconnected from the driving experience always. A computer chip cannot take the place of tactile feedback or having consistency between steering output and input. I don't care how many people spit out how much bologna, this is fact.
I have driven several of these cars with my own being the one I have driven by far the most. When you drive one of these cars it feels like something is broken or seriously wrong with the car. Take it to the dealer and they will tell you it drives normally and handles fine. All this other crap about the "fix" is bologna. Toyota admitted that the "fix" would change the feel but not improve handling. This is no surprise to me.. Once again no such thing as a free lunch. You don't get something for nothing. In this case the something is cheap cost to the manufacturer and slightly improved fuel economy. The con associated with this, that unfortunately the consumer will bear, is severe chronic poor road handling. .
There is NO free lunch and there IS a serious tradeoff with these EPS systems.
FYI there is not a damn thing Toyota can do to these cars to make them drive and handle well with a recall. What the TSB "Fix"? Pipedream on if you think there is.
#489 of 664 Re: programming [biffpreston]
Sep 30, 2010 (3:01 pm)
I am new to this corolla forum. i recently purchased a 2010 LE for my child. I want to state this as clear as possible and what i am about to say happened before i saw this forum.
A few weeks ago i drove the corolla to my child at college 200 miles away. I felt no perceptible difference in the steering/handling. Everything was smooth for all 200 miles. i could not tell if i was driving a car with EPS.
So to state that all corollas with eps have a built in, non correctable deficiency is just not true.
I do not know what will happen with the car in the future, but for now, my child and i are thrilled with the purchase.
#490 of 664 Re: programming [new57]
Sep 30, 2010 (3:18 pm)
There are people who are going to be satisfied with this car. Yes they do all drive the same for the most part and very badly in my opinion. There are definately people who will read magazines like consumer reports or others and who really feel confident in an established brand or car to the point where they will feel better and safer in a car they feel is a "sure bet". It doesn't matter after purchase how badly the car drives. I have test driven several 2010 and my 2009, they all had horrifically bad road handling. Every review that I have read on the new Corolla with EPS except for consumer reports slams the cars handling as being very poor.
When you say you didnt feel any perceptible difference. Difference to what? A normal hydraulic rack and pinion steering system? So you couldn't tell a difference between this car and its steering and any other you have driven? Really?! Are you kidding?
#491 of 664 Re: programming [biffpreston]
Sep 30, 2010 (5:10 pm)
Biff wrote "Yes they do all drive the same for the most part and very badly in my opinion".
Yeah, we know! Because your Toyota Corolla is infected with a bad EPS module you think everyone else's Corolla is also. You've had at least five people try to tell you that their cars are fine but you just won't accept that will you?
#492 of 664 Re: programming [biffpreston]
Sep 30, 2010 (5:18 pm)
Biff wrote, "And no offense to anyone but I also think it is very peculiar that people that are NOT having an EPS issue would post so much on this particular thread"
Well see, that's where you're wrong (again) Biff. This is an EPS thread, not just for your complaints about the EPS but for those of us that love it just the way it is. Get used to it, it's the wave of the future in cars.
#493 of 664 Re: Ill have the last word [biffpreston]
Sep 30, 2010 (6:42 pm)
In the variable assist column mounted electric steering in the Corolla the best that can be achieved is awful. This specific type of electric steering system is going to be awful.
And knowing all you do about EPS systems, and knowing that the best that can be achieved with the Corolla's steering is "awful"... you bought one anyway? Something doesn't add up here. Hard to fathom why anyone, especially someone who is knowledgeable in these kinds of steering systems, would put themselves into such a car. Or, didn't you know before you bought the car that it has variable assist column mounted electric steering? Long test drives are a really good idea for car buyers, also. I notice you are taking that approach for your next car, yes? Good idea.
#494 of 664 Re: Toyotas problem [biffpreston]
Sep 30, 2010 (6:48 pm)
... I get the picture that pretty much all cars with EPS are rated very poorly when it comes to road handling...
I don't know you'll find many reviews saying the Golf/Jetta, with EPS, are rated poorly on road handling. Having owned a Golf (nee Rabbit) with EPS, I can personally say it's handling was excellent for a relatively inexpensive FWD car.
A more recent example that EPS can be done right:
Another source of worry is the all-new Electric Power Steering (EPS) system that’s making its debut in the 2011 5-Series. BMW has long produced had some of the best steering systems in the business.
Fortunately, all of our worries—and most of the worries we can think of for BMW’s enthusiast base—are for naught. First off, the steering in the new BMW 5-Series is the best you’ll find in a sedan its size; it’s one of the best systems yet—with a great, natural feel on center and plenty of road feel in tight corners. There’s none of the disconnected, ‘digital’ feel that’s present in some other electric power steering systems.
But as you know, there's still some cars out there w/o EPS. Hope you find one to your liking.
#495 of 664 Re: Toyotas problem [backy]
Sep 30, 2010 (9:43 pm)
Some of these higher dollar cars have better quality electric steering in them. It is NOT the variable assist column mounted garbage like in the Corollas, I have read that the volkswagen do have some of the best electric steering out of all the lower dollar cars possesing it. I still very seriously doubt that it handles anything like a good hydraulic rack and pinion assist. That is just my doubt.
As far as these reviewers go. I do not trust car reviewers in general. Consumer reports is absolutely ridiculous when it comes to car reviewing. It isnt even possible to get any idea about what a car is really like from reading any of their publications. Diplomacy is their main concern. Many of these car reviewers are extremely biased. Even more so the so called "reputable" ones. At the very least theyre extremely diplomatic to the point where even reading their review of a car is useless as the reader is unble to really get any idea of what the car is really like.