Last post on Sep 21, 2012 at 7:25 AM
You are in the Subaru Legacy & Outback
What is this discussion about?
Subaru Legacy, Subaru Outback, Subaru Forester, Car Buying, Car Comparisons, Sedan, Wagon
#277 of 1296 Re: Saw the new Legacy sedan at my dealer [saedave]
Aug 03, 2009 (1:33 pm)
Your point is well taken. Again, this is all personal opinion, obviously. But the qualities that attracted me to Subaru in 1997, and kept me interested until the most recent design iteration, seem to have been pretty much lost. They used to be distinctive, if slightly odd (to some) cars. Remember when they were called the Japanese Saabs, but reliable? No more.
As for not liking anything new, I respectfully disagree. When the new 2005/6 models came out, I lusted after those cars, but my '98 showed no signs of giving up. I was seriously gonna go the new Legacy GT wagon route when the old one gave out. That was the plan. But no more.
From where I sit, from the mid 90's on, they just got better and better. This last go round, something broke (in my mind). Like the engineers are all hiding in a corner some where while marketing calls all the shots.
Of course, that seems to be selling, so if moving product is your only criteria for 'goodness', then I guess it's good for Subaru (but I've gotta be selfish here, I want a Subaru that's good for ME). Hence my wondering about the taste of the American market, since none of these companies seem to be doing this to most of the rest of the world.
Honda was first down this road with the new Accord (although, while bigger than I'd prefer, I wouldn't call it ugly). Now Mazda has capitulated (Toyota was always there). Perhaps it's time for the Koreans to shine, they've been going from strength to strength recently.
Sad, really, that's all. Or maybe I'm just a sentimental old fool. But from here on out I'm afraid it's the used market for me.
#278 of 1296 Re: Saw the new Legacy sedan at my dealer [ctjalsma]
Aug 03, 2009 (2:55 pm)
I would call the new Accord homely. The Legacy sedan is not much better, but it is in keeping with current fashion. It will probably not stand the test of time, but most designs don't. Althought the new Outback is way too tall for me, it is a better balanced design than Accord and Legacy. Those who disagree, let's check back in 20 years. I'll accept whatever results.
BTW, still think of Ford when they introduced the dowdy Five Hundred, opposite the Chrysler 300, saying the 500 would stand the test of time better. Not so. It looks even more ridiculous only five years later. Fail! The 300 is old hat, but not dowdy. It never will be.
#279 of 1296 Re: Encouraging July Sales [wmarton64]
Aug 04, 2009 (6:36 am)
I don't think that article is well written.
No new models? Hello? Forester was new. Impreze was semi-new and updated.
Plus now they have a new Legacy and Outback.
Then they talk about Russia? Japan is the #1 market and USA is #2. Those are the markets that matter.
#280 of 1296 Re: Encouraging July Sales [ateixeira]
Aug 04, 2009 (2:31 pm)
I'd say that some of the content is a bit suspect rather than not well written, which is why I highlighted certain phrases. The larger point though is that FHI lost money during a period when sales were strong relative to the other manufacturers. Yes, they lost less money, but they still are/were in the red.
Below is a write-up from Joe Spitz at cars101.com re. the July sales:
"8/3 July sales total 21,839 up 34%. Cash for Clunkers sells cars for everyone, and 'end of model year' rebates and low rates helps. Subaru is up 34% over July 08s total of 16,271 for a strong 4% YTD gain (July 09- July 08). July 09 totals - Outback 4972, Forester 7574, Impreza 6247, Legacy 2340, Tribeca 707.
The Legacy (+34%) and Impreza (+41%) were clearly helped by big rebates and 0% financing. The '10 Outback CUV has been successful though folks who preferred the '09 station wagon version quickly picked off remaining inventory (Outback +33%) with the help of some nice 'end of model year' rebates of course. The '10 Forester Premium's new power driver seat has folks liking the car even more but all models are strongly popular. Tribeca? -10% from 788 July 08 and -44% YTD, Yes there will be a 2010 Tribeca 7 passenger but why and I still suggest a TriBaja pick-up version to replace the late Baja."
July was an odd month so we need to see how the next quarter goes before drawing any conclusions about the re-designed Legacy and Outback. One thing that I am very worried about though is the overlap in Subaru's lineup when it comes to the Forester, Outback, and Tribeca. The Tribeca, for all intents and purposes, is dead; however, the Forester definitely ate into Outback sales in 2008 and 2009 (take a look at cars101 and the relative sales history for the two vehicles after the Forester was re-designed). Let's see how Outback sales are after the 2009s are long gone and the 2010s are on the lots in volume. I suspect that sales will be a bit disappointing because the re-designed Outback is more CUV/SUVish, a domain where the Forester resides. Also, the Forester is a cheaper option for a car that is pretty close to the size of the Outback.
#281 of 1296 Standard Engine on 2010 Legacy
Aug 05, 2009 (1:19 pm)
Took a test drive the other night and liked the car. Friend told me to think twice before buying claiming the standard boxer engine is old technology so why pay today's dollars for an old design. Is he right? Are the powerplants in an Accord or Mazda6 more modern and sophisticated? Thank you.
#282 of 1296 Re: Standard Engine on 2010 Legacy [oceana143]
Aug 05, 2009 (4:49 pm)
Your friend is stupid. By that reckoning, an I4, a V6, a V8, etc. is "old technology." Inline, boxer, V design, W design are all different configurations of the cylinders in relation to one another. It is not like all engines used to be boxers (like Porsche) and then the smart money moved to something better. Sheesh, perhaps your friend believes in saying any stupid thing that comes to mind.
#284 of 1296 Re: Standard Engine on 2010 Legacy [oceana143]
Aug 05, 2009 (6:07 pm)
Your friend is marginally right in that Honda and Mazda do have more sophisicated engines (i.e., dual camshafts and variable valve timing), features that Subaru's H4 currently does not offer. These improvements allow for greater power without increasing the engine displacement. On the other hand the boxer design is still of great value and its age should not be held against it. For example BMW, who pioneered the boxer design in 1921, continues to sells motorcycles based on engines built with opposing twin cylinders which offer a low center of gravity along with modest engine vibration.
#285 of 1296 Re: Standard Engine on 2010 Legacy [oceana143]
Aug 06, 2009 (9:10 am)
Boxer engines have a natural second order balance. In-line 4 bangers nowadays require the added reciprocating mass of balance shafts, while a boxer doesn't need 'em.
Plus, 170hp from a 2.5l is competitive, even without DOHC or variable valve timing.
Plus boxers have a characteristic sound. You may not tell a difference with an in-line four from Nissan, Honda, Toyota, or Mazda, but you'll hear the distinctive boxer from a block away.
Pop the hood, especially next to a Mazda6. I just checked one out while getting an oil change in my Miata.
Look closely at the location of the engine - the Subaru's entire engine lies below the top of the tire, allowing a low center of gravity. I believe both spark plugs lie aft of the front axle, too, so really it's a front-midship engine layout.
Now hop over to the Mazda6. Aye, what a train wreck. The entire block lies ahead of the front axle. And way up high, much of it above the top of the front tires. Having all the weight in front of the axle like that makes it harder for the car to turn in. There's more inertia preventing it from feeling nimble, and of course a very nose heavy, unbalanced car.
I don't have specifics but I bet the Mazda6' weight distribution is something like 62/38, while a typical Subaru is closer to 55/45. Much, much better balance.
To be fair the one in a showroom was a V6, but I doubt the 4 banger is much better, maybe 60/40.
Even if you ignore the position of the engine, neither the Accord nor the Mazda6 use the latest Direct Injection technology (Mazda does in the turbo MazdaSpeed3 though), so arguably those designs are dated as well.
#286 of 1296 Re: Standard Engine on 2010 Legacy [ateixeira]
Aug 06, 2009 (9:56 am)
I have nothing to add to this post except to say that it's one of the best written and informative I've ever seen on this or any other site. KUTGW!
But ... I still can't make up my mind between a '10 Outback or a leftover '09 Forester.