Cash for Clunkers - Good or Bad Idea?

4110 messages, Last post on Nov 23, 2009 at 11:42 AM

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What is this discussion about? Legislation, Truck, Sedan, Wagon, SUV

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#1321 of 4110 Re: what effect will this have on used market? [kathyc2] by kdhspyder Jul 01, 2009 (11:16 am)
Replying to: kathyc2 (Jul 01, 2009 8:27 am) There are 250 million vehicles on the road today. 250,000 old ones are going to be retired and 250,000 new ones are going to be added. That's 0.01% of the vehicles on the road!!! No effect. Replies to this message: kathyc2 (Jul 01, 2009 11:27 am)
#1322 of 4110 Re: how stupid this is [andre1969] by kathyc2 Jul 01, 2009 (11:17 am)
Replying to: andre1969 (Jul 01, 2009 9:32 am) Andre, I did read you entire post, and you make some good points. However, I am looking at it from the perspective of what I would consider an average car that gets 21MPG, which is 30% less than the 16MPG SUV in your example. The extra demand for gas the SUV creates already raises gas prices for all of us. That is what it is and the price we pay for living in a free society. However, for us tax payers to further subsidize and encourage the purchase of a 16MPG vehicle in my opinion is wrong. Preliminary data shows June 09 sales only down around 20% from 08 numbers. In fact Ford is planning to increase production. And this is before the C4C program.
#1323 of 4110 Re: question regarding this program. [andre1969] by kernick Jul 01, 2009 (11:17 am)
Replying to: andre1969 (Jul 01, 2009 9:58 am) For example, just imagine if Amtrak's Northeast Corridor didn't exist. Just imagine how much more crowded our highways would be between DC and New Yorker. First tell me how many people take these trains each day. Then tell me how many of these people could have stayed in their office, and had a video conference. Third - tell me that as a society we couldn't do a better job of distributing our commuting time. Maybe the problem is too many people need to use the roads for a few hours of the 24 hr/day hmm? Just think if mass transit went away, and everybody suddenly needed to get a car. As I said some of the biggest and most densely populated cities do not have much mass transit or car-ownership. Take a look at the giant cities of India, China, Mexico City, Singapore, Hong Kong - walk, bike, scooters. Heck we may even change the use of buildings such that you can live, work, recreate and shop in a 6 block radius (for those who want to live in an urban or suburban area)? Replies to this message: dtownfb (Jul 01, 2009 5:10 pm) kernick (Jul 02, 2009 7:52 am) andre1969 (Jul 02, 2009 8:06 am) and 3 more... dtownfb (Jul 02, 2009 5:16 pm) fintail (Jul 01, 2009 5:53 pm) chetj (Jul 01, 2009 7:00 pm) chetj (Jul 01, 2009 7:01 pm) kernick (Jul 02, 2009 8:00 am) fintail (Jul 02, 2009 9:35 am) and 4 more...
#1324 of 4110 Re: what effect will this have on used market? [kdhspyder] by kathyc2 Jul 01, 2009 (11:27 am)
Replying to: kdhspyder (Jul 01, 2009 11:16 am) I don't think the total on the road would play into the equation. I think it would be more the under 4K vehicles that are traded on a normal year. I have no idea what that number would be. I think there will be some ACTUAL supply/demand shift in the lower end market and a lot more PERCEIVED shift.
#1325 of 4110 Re: how stupid this is [kdhspyder] by kathyc2 Jul 01, 2009 (11:33 am)
Replying to: kdhspyder (Jul 01, 2009 11:13 am) Since I don't get a say in how my tax dollars are spent, a portion of them go to every wasteful program the government puts out. Yep, I even paid a portion of Obama's date to NYC. And what's nice about being an American is even if I don't have a say how my money is spent, I have the privilege of being able to grumble about it.
#1326 of 4110 Re: question regarding this program. [stephen987] by gagrice Jul 01, 2009 (11:34 am)
Replying to: stephen987 (Jul 01, 2009 10:26 am) So who should pay for the roads? In CA we pay about 60 cents per gallon to maintain the highways and bridges. A large percentage of that goes to mass transit. The roads in CA are poorly maintained for the billions in gas tax we pay. I have no problem with Mass Transit that is self sustaining. It is so bad here that we are now thinking of going about $90 billion further in debt to give a high speed train ride to a few hundred people a day. What a travesty that is for the ignorant masses in CA.
#1327 of 4110 Re: question regarding this program. [dtownfb] by gagrice Jul 01, 2009 (11:42 am)
Replying to: dtownfb (Jul 01, 2009 10:27 am) I think you are oversimplifying things when you compare mass transit to welfare. At the turn of the last century the USA had more miles of mass transit than the rest of the world combined. It was all privately owned and profitable. Most of it was to service the growing suburbs around the major cities. Europe had more cars than we did at the time. Then along came cheap cars and the trolleys and trains were no longer profitable in many cities. I rather spend $1.50 using the PATH to get into NYC rather than $8 to use the Lincoln Tunnel and another $25-$30 for parking So you accept that welfare because you are the recipient. Looks like you got about $30 in welfare with one trip into NYC. Why don't the rates reflect the savings you enjoyed. The mass transit should cost as much as the car it replaced. Or close to as much. Breaking even would be a big improvement for the cities that are going bankrupt. Replies to this message: Mr_Shiftright (Jul 01, 2009 12:11 pm) gagrice (Jul 01, 2009 1:52 pm) Mr_Shiftright (Jul 01, 2009 2:24 pm) and 2 more... hpmctorque (Jul 02, 2009 2:48 am) and 4 more...
#1328 of 4110 Re: what effect will this have on used market? [kathyc2] by steve_ HOST Jul 01, 2009 (11:55 am)
Replying to: kathyc2 (Jul 01, 2009 8:27 am) My feeling is since there will be less low priced used cars/trucks on the market, dealers will use this as a reason and scare tactic to raise prices. C4C may dry up the supply of used cars a bit more, but used car prices are already up there pretty good. "Compared with new vehicles sales — which are at lows unseen in decades — the used car market is doing well," observed Edmunds.com CEO Jeremy Anwyl. "Desirable used vehicles are becoming harder to find, pushing up their prices, while today's new cars are heavily discounted. This is creating an unusual economic event: It can actually be less expensive to purchase a new car than a used car." Some New Cars Now Less Expensive than Used Cars, Edmunds.com Reports (March 20, 2009). Replies to this message: kathyc2 (Jul 01, 2009 12:59 pm) isellhondas (Jul 01, 2009 1:35 pm) kathyc2 (Jul 01, 2009 2:10 pm) and 8 more... andre1969 (Jul 02, 2009 6:16 am) Mr_Shiftright (Jul 01, 2009 1:37 pm) isellhondas (Jul 01, 2009 1:45 pm)
#1329 of 4110 Re: question regarding this program. [gagrice] by Mr_Shiftright HOST Jul 01, 2009 (12:11 pm)
Replying to: gagrice (Jul 01, 2009 11:42 am) We are ALL IN THIS TOGETHER. This includes autoworkers and old people on busses. This includes YOU and me. Conceptual "anarcho-topias" just don't apply to real world problems IMO. Take mass transit away in America and the country would collapse into utter chaos. We all know this if we step back and visualize it for a moment. Could you defend the view that it wouldn't matter? Don't think so. It, public mass transit, is the system that takes up all that a private automobile and current highways cannot do. It's part of a network of transportation. Some regions need it more than others. It also doesn't matter if it pays for itself or not DIRECTLY---it pays for itself a hundred times over in worker productivity, cleaner air and a better life for people too young or too old to drive. Can you bear a jog in Tokyo or Athens? It's tough going and it's not smog from metro trains either. Sink or swim unregulated capitalism is not a form of government. It is at best a presently dysfunctional and somewhat discredited form of economics. Bring on C4C. The boat's leaking. Replies to this message: gagrice (Jul 01, 2009 1:52 pm) Mr_Shiftright (Jul 01, 2009 2:24 pm) gagrice (Jul 01, 2009 2:38 pm) tazzi (Jul 01, 2009 4:15 pm) hpmctorque (Jul 02, 2009 2:48 am) stephen987 (Jul 02, 2009 3:12 am) gagrice (Jul 02, 2009 4:57 am) and 1 more... Mr_Shiftright (Jul 02, 2009 5:59 am)
#1330 of 4110 Re: what effect will this have on used market? [steve_] by kathyc2 Jul 01, 2009 (12:59 pm)
Replying to: steve_ (Jul 01, 2009 11:55 am) I've seen that. I'm looking at trading in my 2006 Torrent and Kelly shows the value as $300 more than they did a couple of weeks ago. And this is for a Pontiac which one would think would decrease. Replies to this message: isellhondas (Jul 01, 2009 1:35 pm) kathyc2 (Jul 01, 2009 2:10 pm) Mr_Shiftright (Jul 01, 2009 2:22 pm) and 5 more... isellhondas (Jul 01, 2009 6:04 pm) and 1 more... andre1969 (Jul 02, 2009 6:16 am) Mr_Shiftright (Jul 01, 2009 1:37 pm) isellhondas (Jul 01, 2009 1:45 pm)