Last post on Mar 14, 2009 at 6:32 PM
You are in the Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions
This discussion is ARCHIVED. To reactivate the discussion, post a request in the Lost? Ask the Hybrids Host for directions! discussion.
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Prius, Toyota Highlander Hybrid, Ford Escape Hybrid, Honda Civic, Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid, Mercury Mariner Hybrid, Saturn Aura Hybrid, Saturn VUE Hybrid, Nissan Altima Hybrid, Hybrid Cars, Coupe, Hatchback, Truck, Sedan, SUV
#7 of 46 Re: Honda & Toyota Lead the Way [railroadjames]
by PFFlyer@Edmunds HOST
Dec 27, 2008 (5:26 pm)
But if Toyota isn't making any money on the Prius then I'm not seeing hybrids as the salvation of the automakers. It doesn't matter how many they sell if they're losing money on each one. Just like if it's going to take some kind of government "incentive" to try and "lower the price" of the Volt, I don't see how that helps GM at all.
Whether some folks love the technology or not is irrelevant if it's going to run companies into the ground.
#8 of 46 Re: Honda & Toyota Lead the Way [pf_flyer]
Dec 27, 2008 (5:37 pm)
It is hard to imagine that Toyota is not making money yet on the Prius. I would not want to buy any of the ones sitting in a yard for 100 days. That Big battery cannot be drained without permanent damage. Many people have left them for 2 weeks and they were dead when they got home. I do think they put a switch or something in to avoid that problem. Still a battery sitting out in the cold for an extended period will lose some of its potential.
It was an experiment that paid off for Toyota. It may help Ford with the Fusion. I would not look for Toyota to add any more hybrids to their lineup.
#9 of 46 Re: Honda & Toyota Lead the Way [gagrice]
by PFFlyer@Edmunds HOST
Dec 28, 2008 (5:26 am)
Hearing that the Prius wasn't making any money surprised me as well. If you can't turn a profit with what essentially is the poster child for hybrids, then I think it's legitimate to wonder if the expense and complexity of hybrids makes it difficult, if not impossible, to have hybrids be the key to the turnaround of the auto industry.
#10 of 46 Re: Honda & Toyota Lead the Way [pf_flyer]
Dec 29, 2008 (12:24 pm)
They only said that the Prius makes no money for Toyota. That's not bad for Toyota. They still make money on all the parts and they get great marketing. Then they also can develop their technology. Since the industry is trending more and more to electric vehicles, this is good research. I don't think hybrids is the key to the turnaround to the auto industry, electric vehicles will be.
#11 of 46 Maryann Keller, GM expert
Jan 02, 2009 (1:06 am)
Maryann Keller's books and expertise echoes those of her sources, GM management. The same GM management that can't make a profit with ordinary vehicles, much less hybrids. The tone-deaf GM management whose first announcement after the taxpayer bailout was the CUV Equinox, another gas-only vehicle. The GM executives who have offered automatic stop-start engines for eight years and calls them hybrids with no explanation of the terrible sales record and poor performance.
'Maximum horsepower' Lutz is accountant Wagner's chief engineer. Lutz claims there is no global warming and as he told Stephen Colbert, his 'Volt' is for homely environmental chicks. His "two-mode" hybrid is for $55-60,000 passenger only SUVs (no vans or work vehicles.) He has only overpriced, useless automatic stop-start in the $20-30,000 range. Then his boss, Wagner's brilliance is asking for a tax payer bailout without both he and Lutz resigning. These are Maryann Keller's sources.
These GM executives and Maryann, their publicist, have been given a few more months but none of them have had a 'road to Damascus' change of attitude. I'm content to wait and going out of business in the Spring is better than Winter. But nothing I've seen makes me want to go into a GM showroom.
#12 of 46 Re: Maryann Keller, GM expert [bwilson4web]
Jan 02, 2009 (6:45 am)
It is hard to argue with your analysis of the GM hybrid program. Looking at the latest GMC Yukon hybrid. It gets exactly the same 20 MPG highway as the gas only version. With a worse CA air pollution score. GM is the joke of the industry. Going from 70% of the US market to about 20% in 30 years. They will be lucky to salvage 20% this year. As far as I can see the Volt is not going to even be a paper bullet for GM. I don't think they will ever put it into production.
#13 of 46 Re: Maryann Keller, GM expert [gagrice]
Jan 02, 2009 (7:15 am)
The joke was them calling the "mild" stuff hybrids in the first place. And then "independent" analysts on their payroll letting them get away with it (luckily Edmunds breaks down their system in their model info).
Somehow I think the Volt is gonna be like the Vette...a big expensive halo, that will not trickle down to the rest if their lineup for fear of diluting their "halo." I mean come on, they can't even get it done with a 2-mode hybrid, while Ford is sitting there coming out with a hybrid coup, beating up on Toyota. Even if Ford loses money on those, just the pure PR they can get from one-upping Toyota (who seems to be doing some damage control footwork already) is going to be major. How much do you want to bet Keller gets money from Toyota too? With Ford coming out with THE most efficient midsize hybrid in the US, both GM and Toyota are going to want that accomplishment by Ford downplayed.
#14 of 46 Re: Maryann Keller, GM expert [bpizzuti]
Jan 02, 2009 (8:21 am)
I agree. The Camry Hybrid was a good show by Toyota. Ford beating the Camry EPA ratings is a real accomplishment. I am not personally a fan of hybrids. I do think that Ford will do well if they can supply the market. When and if it ever turns around. Looking at the numbers on the Malibu hybrid, GM should be ashamed to even put it on the market.
#15 of 46 Re: Maryann Keller, GM expert [gagrice]
Jan 02, 2009 (10:39 am)
Heck, even taking the hybrid out of the equation Ford beat the Camry with it. If the next Focus has a hybrid version, look out Civic and Prius.
#16 of 46 Hybrids Are More Than Just That!
Jan 02, 2009 (7:06 pm)
As I see it. When the discussions come up about hybrids it seems that the topic centers around the hybrid system rather than the entire hybrid car. This is far from the sum total of what brought me to praising the Toyota Prius. The styling gets a B+, the roominess & the flip down seats a B, the hatchback a resounding A, storage areas a B, reliability of working parts an A, the CVT tranny is simply smooth as silk rating another A, theToyota service dept's an A (well at least my dealer), the resounding agreement of nearly all Toyota owners giving an A for overall satisfaction with the Prius. All the while Honda is not far behind.
I learned way back in the early 70's that Honda made quality and inovative motorcycles that swept the country and their marketing was simple and also inovative too. When Honda hit the market with their 1st aircooled "Honda 600 Coupe" I needed no encouragment to buy one at $1,995.00 new out the door. It was an amazing car with its 10" wheels and 2cyl. engine. I drove it to Tampa, Florida from Chicago round trip and couldn't believe the gas mpg's ( 53).
My young daughter bought a Pontiac Sunfire a few years ago and 6 months later everything seemed to go wrong with the car from brakes to AC, to both power windows failing. How can G.M. expect anyone to buy their cars if they are as fallable as the example just stated.
One key point that won me over to the Prius was that "Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Popular Science, Mechanics Illustrated". and a host of other reliable critics said that the hybrid Prius was just about the best thing since duct tape.
In the past I owned many American cars that I simply enjoyed emensely. examples: 55 Chevy, 63 Impala SS, 71 Mustang Mach 1, 73 Dodge Charger SE, and the list goes on. That was then and this is now. My Prius is a piece of the future today as I see it. The world of cars is changing and I do hope that American car makers find their mark soon because I want nothing better than to own one of theirs as I did in the past.