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Were hybrids ever the silver bullet? - READ ONLY

46 messages,  Last post on Mar 14, 2009 at 7:32 PM

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What is this discussion about? Toyota Prius, Toyota Highlander Hybrid, Ford Escape Hybrid, Honda Civic, Chevrolet Malibu Hybrid, Mercury Mariner Hybrid, Saturn Aura Hybrid, Saturn VUE Hybrid, Nissan Altima Hybrid, Hybrid Cars, Coupe, Hatchback, Truck, Sedan, SUV

Messages Page 4 of 5

#27 of 46 Re: Price Premium....Compare Closely [bpizzuti] by railroadjames

Jan 15, 2009 (8:42 pm)

Replying to: bpizzuti (Jan 15, 2009 2:33 pm)
I don't know where you get the impression that hiway driving is so reduced compared to city but your in for a rude awakening. My wife & I did an 8K trip to Montana and down to Utah and back to Valpo, Indiana. We averaged over 47 mpg's with the exception of the high mountains in Glacier Nat. Prk. Trips to Atlanta, Ga several times crowded 50 mpg's. Several times I've gotten 540 plus miles to a tank of gas (11 gal cap.) To tell the truth ...Short trips around town drop to 42-44 mpg's because the engine seldom warms up especially in real cold & frigid weather. It's 20 below as I write. Gosh I love my fireplace tonite. Like you I really like my hatchback. I have 2 dogs: one 70 lbs & one 105 lbs. It's easy access for them and cargo too. Lastly, remember that with a Prius Hybrid, with 2 drive motors that means after 100K miles the ICE engine worked only about 60 K miles and was duel assisted by and large much of the time with the Electric Mode. This is actually an asset when you consider traffic jams a big plus. When I'm sitting or crawling along in Electric Mode while a Hummer H2 is burning 10 mpg in the same framework I smile. I've gotten as high as 62 mpg's several times in this annoying trap. The Prius runs cooler too in extreem hot weather for obvious reasons. One other thing: the styling never seems to grow old considering that my 'o4 Prius looks just like an '09. What do they say? Don't mess with a good thing.

#28 of 46 Re: Price Premium....Compare Closely [railroadjames] by bpizzuti

Jan 16, 2009 (4:00 am)

Replying to: railroadjames (Jan 15, 2009 8:42 pm)
Well, I would never buy a Prius because I just strongly dislike Toyota.

#29 of 46 Re: Price Premium....Compare Closely [bpizzuti] by railroadjames

Jan 16, 2009 (6:06 am)

Replying to: bpizzuti (Jan 16, 2009 4:00 am)
SIMPLY PUT: TO EACH HIS OWN!
 
P.S. Thanks to TOYOTA I've saved enough $$$$$ in gas savings to actually get out and vacation each yr. Remember when gas was $4.50 -$4.75? I watched as a woman in a 3/piece suit filled a Hummer to the tune of $130.00 plus while I came & went to the happy tune of a $32.00 fill-up. She was back in 300 miles to do it again where as I wouldn't do it till well after 500 plus miles. The "price premium" seems a matter of perspective.

#30 of 46 Re: Price Premium....Compare Closely [railroadjames] by bpizzuti

Jan 16, 2009 (6:47 am)

Replying to: railroadjames (Jan 16, 2009 6:06 am)
Well, I don't like the way Toyota's drive, I don't like their interiors, and i REALLY don't like their salesmen around here. Not everything is about money or the best fuel economy: I spend so much time in the car that I need to enjoy it and not be in a penalty box (or what I see as one anyway). That's why I'd consider an Insight or Fusion but not a Prius (much as I like hatches).
 
Like you said, to each their own. The Prius is the right car for some, but not for me.

#31 of 46 Re: Price Premium....Compare Closely [railroadjames] by gagrice

Jan 16, 2009 (7:03 am)

Replying to: railroadjames (Jan 16, 2009 6:06 am)
She was back in 300 miles to do it again where as I wouldn't do it till well after 500 plus miles.
 
I agree she was stupid to buy the Hummer when she could buy a BMW X5 diesel or Mercedes GL320 CDI and gotten 700 miles on a tank of diesel close to 30 MPG. With a lot more luxury and performance at about the same price. I know you like your Prius. 15 minutes riding around with a friend turned me off on them COMPLETELY. I would rather spend 3 times as much for gas in my gas guzzling Sequoia than be subjected to that rough noisy little car. Taking an 8k mile trip in one proves you are one tough dude.

#32 of 46 Re: Price Premium....Compare Closely [bpizzuti] by kdhspyder

Jan 16, 2009 (7:31 am)

Replying to: bpizzuti (Jan 15, 2009 2:33 pm)
Sorry but your 'hybrid premium' contention is just a shorthand notation for what is a much more complex cost analysis similar to Edmunds TCO.
 
You look at the extra cost to acquire and say 'Ah ha...'
 
But that is just too shortshighted. As railroadjames was implying above the analysis also has to include
Length of Ownership
Annual miles driven
Average cost of fuel over the Length of Ownership ( you don't really think that fuel will remain at $1.75 for the next 10 years I hope )
Maintenance
Reliability
Equal vehicles and equal equipment ( not a Fusion vs a Mazda 3 )
The 'value' of more horsepower
 
and the one that negates the 'hybrid premium' considerations
 
RESALE value.
 
The only serious way to analyse these costs is to create a spreadsheet to accumulate the costs over the expected lifetime of ownership and then compare the total costs
 
Here's why this is so important.. Yes in the beginning it does cost more to purchase a new hybrid with similar amenities over the non-hybrid version of that same vehicle. However if I told you that if you owned the hybrid for 7 yrs and drove 150,000 miles that in those 7 yrs that you'd end up spending $2000-$4000 less than for the pleasure of driving the non-hybrid....would you care what the 'hybrid premium ' was upfront? No you'd be more interested in the total cost.
 
Who cares what the initital 'premium' is or how long it takes to 'recover' it. What matters is how much does this depreciating asset cost you while your own it. It only matters which costs less in total.
 
We'll have to wait and see how Ford prices this FFH vs the non-hybrid version. But as an indicator, the TCH ranges from a 'premium' of $3000 to a 'discount' of $5000 vis-a-vis it's non-hybrid siblings. When sold at a discount obviously the whole 'hybrid premium' issue vanishes into thin air. It costs less to begin with and the savings just add up from day one onward.

#33 of 46 Re: Price Premium....Compare Closely [kdhspyder] by bpizzuti

Jan 16, 2009 (7:44 am)

Replying to: kdhspyder (Jan 16, 2009 7:31 am)
KH, I know you're a hybrid nut, but some people don't care about saving $2000 over 7 years (in my case it would be less than that). Not if they can save that $2000 and more up front. Sometimes the "when" you get the money is more important than how much. Especially since I could take that up-front $2000, and over 7 years make 10-15% APY on it, which means it's more like $3400 or more.
 
What matters if if a person decides that they like the car and feels that it's the right move for them. The choice as far as pro-hybrid isn't always financial either...some just prefer to burn less gas and don't care how much it costs them. More power to them, but everyone has different tastes and priorities.

#34 of 46 Re: Price Premium....Compare Closely [bpizzuti] by kdhspyder

Jan 16, 2009 (7:45 am)

Replying to: bpizzuti (Jan 16, 2009 4:00 am)
Well, I would never buy a Prius because I just strongly dislike Toyota.
 
Then this emotion is the basis of your arguments. That perfectly valid as long as you don't try to rationalize 'good' vs 'bad' with spurious data that's easily disproven..
 
Apart from likes and dislikes in a simply dispassionate analysis the hybrids cost the same or less overall than their non-hybrid counteparts.

#35 of 46 Re: Price Premium....Compare Closely [bpizzuti] by kdhspyder

Jan 16, 2009 (7:50 am)

Replying to: bpizzuti (Jan 16, 2009 7:44 am)
KH, I know you're a hybrid nut, but some people don't care about saving $2000 over 7 years (in my case it would be less than that). Not if they can save that $2000 and more up front. Sometimes the "when" you get the money is more important than how much. Especially since I could take that up-front $2000, and over 7 years make 10-15% APY on it, which means it's more like $3400 or more
 
As I said in the prior post your likes and dislikes are perfectly valid and prolly more important. That's fine.
 
Just don't try to justify your emotions with facts that don't exist. Your emotional reasons for now buying one are valid enough. Remember some of the TCH and presumably some of the FFH will cost $3000 to $5000 less than their non-hybrid siblings.....UPFRONT!!!
 
Just ignore the facts and buy what you like.

#36 of 46 Re: Price Premium....Compare Closely [kdhspyder] by bpizzuti

Jan 16, 2009 (7:54 am)

Replying to: kdhspyder (Jan 16, 2009 7:50 am)
Some will. But I still say that the hybrid version is an engine upgrade from the base powertrain and therefore costs more up-front, no matter what savings may or may not happen down the road. Fact. Period. Some people are not willing to pay more up front, that's all.

Messages Page 4 of 5

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