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Hybrid Vehicles Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan Hybrid Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan Hybrid
1054 messages, Last post on Nov 01, 2009 at 2:52 PM
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Replying to: gregg_vw (Jan 07, 2009 10:58 am) If a person normally expects to spend $25000 - $35000 on a vehicle then the hybrids are simply the most economical choice. There is no 'premium', it doesn't exist for these buyers. In fact there's a discount, i.e. the amount of fuel saved. I agree that a person willing to spend that much may not care that the hybrid cost $3K more. Just like they may be willing to spend $3K on a DVD/NAV/Stereo option or $5K on a luxury package. If a person plans to spend $25K to $35K on a car, where is the premium? Well DUH - It's in the extra $3K cost of the hybrid over the non hybrid. If you're both saying that buyers won't PERCEIVE it as a premium then that I can agree with. They will also PERCEIVE that they're saving money overall based on lower fuel costs. But PERCEPTION is not REALITY. I'm sorry but I'm a literal person. If you say there's no premium when there clearly is I have a problem with it. If you say there is a premium but nobody cares then that's fine.
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Replying to: akirby (Jan 07, 2009 10:50 am) Of course there is a difference in price. There is also a difference in price between the 4 cyl and the V6; between the base model and one with Navi and Leather. The key point is that Ford and Toyota and Honda have discovered that there are whole swaths of buyers that will not even consider the base model of the Fusion or Camry or Civic under any circumstance. For these buyers those base models don't exist. This isn't a theoretical beauty pagaent. It's about identifying buyers and what they want and what they don't want. For the ultra budget conscious the hybrids probably are NOT the best choice....a good used vehicle is a better choice. For those expecting to pay $25000 - $35000 for their next new vehicle any one of the hybrids is a great choice because they're less expensive overall than the other vehicles in that price range. Buyers first of all classify themselves into price strata. A $40000 vehicle buyer will not consider a $14000 strippie outside of extraordinary circumstances. A $19000 buyer doesn't really 'shop' a Mercedes, he or she may look but they know that they don't belong there budget-wise. |
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Replying to: akirby (Jan 07, 2009 11:22 am) I'm sorry but I'm a literal person. If you say there's no premium when there clearly is I have a problem with it. If you say there is a premium but nobody cares then that's fine. After 8 yrs of addressing these concerns this key concept has proven itself valid. Buyers in this price segment see the benefits of having the most fuel efficient vehicle in that price stratum. The vehicle makers know what they're doing in these pricing structures. The Camry V6 loaded goes for $33000 MSRP ......... 268 HP The Camry Hybrid loaded goes for $32000 MSRP .... 187 HP The Camry I4 loaded goes for $31000 MSRP ........... 161 HP ( soon 179 HP ) I'd expect the FFH to have a similar structure. All three have the same equipment, the only difference is the drive system. Buyers in this price stratum recognize that the hybrid overall is the less costly vehicle. You see the price premium ( vis-a-vis the I4 ) while I see the price discount ( vis-a-vis the V6 ). In addition when you add up all the estimated costs over the lives of these three vehicles the TCH comes out far lower overall. Thus for the literally-minded not only is there NO PREMIUM but in fact there is a discount. |
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Replying to: kdhspyder (Jan 07, 2009 1:04 pm) Buyers first of all classify themselves into price strata. A $40000 vehicle buyer will not consider a $14000 strippie outside of extraordinary circumstances. A $19000 buyer doesn't really 'shop' a Mercedes, he or she may look but they know that they don't belong there budget-wise Speak for yourself. I seriously test drove a $18K used mustang GT and a $20K mercury cougar before buying a $38,000 Lincoln LS. I just wanted something fun to drive and price wasn't an issue (below $40K). For those expecting to pay $25000 - $35000 for their next new vehicle any one of the hybrids is a great choice because it's less expensive overall than the other vehicles in that price range. Now you've TOTALLY lost me again. Let's say I'm looking at a $30K Fusion that happens to be a hybrid. I can also get the EXACT SAME VEHICLE without the hybrid powertrain (2.5L I4) for $27K that still gets great fuel economy. So my choice is to get the non hybrid or pay $3K more for the hybrid version that gets much better fuel economy. HOW DOES THAT MAKE THE HYBRID CHEAPER?? It might turn out to be cheaper 5 or 10 years down the road based on future fuel costs, but it costs more up front.
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Replying to: akirby (Jan 06, 2009 9:51 am) There are cost savings overall in certain cases, for example in the case of the Camry ICE / TCH it's significant. Those savings of lack thereof are controlled by the vehicle makers as they structure their prices. The numbers are clear. In the case of the Camry / TCH the savings are significant. In the case of the Matrix / Prius there are no savings, the two vehicles cost the same over a normal lifespan. In the case of the Highlander / HH the non-hybrid costs less overall significantly, by design. In the case of the Civic / HCH the hybrid costs somewhat less. In the case of the Escape / FEH the hybrid costs somewhat less. |
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Replying to: akirby (Jan 07, 2009 1:26 pm) Again there is no question that the two vehicles have different acquisition costs. But this view is too narrow to be valid. In the end the FFH will cost less to purchase and to operate than the non-hybrid version. BTW, In the acquisition cost of the FFH did you factor in a potential Federal tax credit of $2500 - $3000 and/or many of the state tax credits available? With the superior fuel economy and the superior resale value of the hybrids even without the tax credit(s) the total cost of ownership and operation are going to be lower....for normal driving and a normal ownership period. |
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Replying to: akirby (Jan 07, 2009 1:26 pm) If I am spending $30K or so, I will look around at what that money will get me. The hybrid will go up against more expensive cars than the non-hybrid, because, given the extra equipment and tech on board, it is worth the extra dough and deserves to be compared with other vehicles that cost as much as it does. The hybrid is likely to have better resale, which in most cases takes care of the higher tariff at the beginning. And it is not just fuel costs you save. There are tax credits, and of course the operating costs are going to be lower than those of a Nissan Maxima or Audi A4. As for your contention that you consider a wide range of prices and products, well so do I and so do lots of other people. I have a Suzuki, a VW and a used F150 and like them all. But I am telling you that if I consider buying a mid-size hybrid sedan, I am unlikely to compare it with the ICE version and say, "oh, I should get the ICE because it is cheaper." I am not interested in a 4 cylinder bread and butter mid-size sedan, and am only considering the hybrid one because of the hybrid powertrain and the stuff that goes with it. I may drive the Audi and others in that price range to make sure that I might not be more happy with the characteristics of another near luxury car in that price range, even if the mileage is lower. But I won't be looking at another used F150 and saying "F150? or hybrid?" Now, someone else might. We are all individuals. But I can assure you that my spreadsheet comparisons of operating costs will not be between, say the Milan hybrid and Milan 4 cylinder, because I do not want a Milan 4 cylinder, so why run the numbers? I want the hybrid. If I bought the 6 cylinder ICE Milan, I could by your same thinking say that the 4 cylinder is less expensive overall (and therefore presumably should have been the one to buy). Yes, it is cheaper to buy and operate. So what? I don't want it. This is what some of the other posters are pointing out by saying there is no premium. It depends on where you focus or what prespective you take of your universe. In addition, others have pointed out the tax advantage and resale factors in addition to lower fuel costs, for those who do make the ICE-hybrid comparison.
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I've been kind of poking in and out for a while. I'm not in the market for a new car, still paying mine off. I haven't read all posts here so if this has been brought up before I'm sorry. Curious about what people are saying about the prospect of having to replace the battery pack at some point in the car's useful life. I don't know how much the battery costs, but I venture to guess about $5k or thereabouts. I'd be interested to see what people think about having a non-hybrid car that eventually is paid off vs. having a hybrid that, while paid off (eventually), will require a replacement battery as all batteries die. If I'm confusing I apologize, but I'd be curious to know.
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Replying to: gregg_vw (Jan 07, 2009 2:53 pm) You then have to take into account a lot of other factors - insurance, finance charges, resale value (which depends on how long you keep it), tax credits, maintenance and fuel costs - to see which one is cheaper. I admit that if the upfront costs are low and there are tax credits then the hybrid may pay off in just a few years - but it depends. This all assumes that you've decided you want to buy a TCH or FFH and the only question is whether you should get the hybrid or the I4 ICE, which is exactly what I would be doing since I'd pick the car I wanted first, then evaluate powertrain options. If you're not willing to consider an ICE powertrain at all then it's a moot point anyway. Which I guess is what you guys are trying to say. If I wanted a hybrid then I'd buy one but I wouldn't try to rationalize it as being cheaper because there are always cheaper alternatives. I'm done. Buy whatever you want and rationalize it any way that makes you feel better. |
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Replying to: tankbeans (Jan 07, 2009 4:51 pm)
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