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Automotive News & Views Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?
3958 messages, Last post on Oct 02, 2009 at 4:52 PM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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Replying to: grbeck (Nov 26, 2008 7:49 am) Your statement is copied below. "Inflation occurs when too much money is chasing the same number of goods. So much wealth has evaporated over the past year that these injections of cash won't replace it." "Do your favor..." the topic. Why not, it doesn't matter. What killed the trucks that Detroit was counting on for cash to turn around their businesses-oil speculation as exposed by Ed Wallace and recognized globally. Historic view over the fullness of time about what's happening. Expanding your example, too much money (printing presses running day and night) chasing too few goods (production down, prices dropping to clear old inventory to change a payable liability with a credit to cash). On the h3 forum some time back posted how much is that puppy in the window, dried vacuum packed figs, jars of pickled okra, or a wheelbarrow of green paper. Who is manipulating the economies and why. Where did the trillions go. To China (holds one trillion of our paper) for our consumptive society. Maybe econuts and treehuggers are somewhat correct. Wish I could remember the Friday? night PBS show here that quoted a lady in India? that stated quality growth and the enrichment of life for all can be had without destruction of the planet. Years ago I use to say, aggressive europeans came here, took and plundered this country. American natives lived her for a long time (yes, they probably had tribal wars) and left us clean water and deep rich prairie soil (which we let blow away). Americans were told to consume to keep the consumptive society going but at the same time the unions and working classes were being sent further down the ladder, why. Then borrowed money was used to keep the illusion alive. So, a loan, a gift, it is only green paper and if hyper-inflation follows this deflation? then cheap wheelbarrow loads can be used to return the green unless the green chits have to be exchanged for the new amero chits or is that soylent green. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Nov 24, 2008 2:00 pm) Ok, but what about the Jets that Reid and Pelosi get to have at the taxpayer's direct expense! Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical for congress to point this out when they have their own jets? Why doesn't Congress take a 10% cut in their salaries and their lifetime pensions? How come pur Public Servants never have to share the pain?
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Replying to: nvbanker (Nov 26, 2008 10:18 am) That has been the normal policy yes; but you're missing the fact that the rules of the game have now changed. What I mean is that when the unions and management used to fight over wages there were several possible outcomes - the union could win or management, and the result was a little more or less one way or the other. So typically let's say the negotiation (lose/win) came down to "is it $30/hr or $31/hr" and GM's was "keeping 35% marketshare, or 34%" because of the wage cost. NEITHER had much to win or lose, compared to now. Now if the union does not want to negotiate, what will happen is not a $1 shift or so. The decision now for the union IS "$20/hr or $0/hr with no GM no pay for pensions or health care!!" So there is a big difference. And you assume bankruptcy with a reorganization is sufficient. It may be but it may eliminate 60-80% of the company. It all depends on the specifics of the bankruptcy. An outright breakup and sale of assets may be the best thing for some of the plants and people. At least the good products, plants and people would then have a chance at new owners and operation. For example: If GM wants to put the Bowling Green plant up for sale, give me the trademark for the Corvette, I'll get the backing and guarantee to keep it running, offering the workers a job. Or I'd buy Hummer for cheap, restart the plants w/o the UAW wages and processes, no legacy pensions, reducing the MSRP say by 1/3, put some diesels in them to increase mpg (I bet VW has some extra capacity right now to provide the engines), and increase the volume at lower price-points, and make some money. |
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Replying to: nvbanker (Nov 26, 2008 11:09 am) Because one thing appears wrong, does not make another wrong, right. Because you steal, I can steal too? What kind of logic is that? Why doesn't Congress take a 10% cut in their salaries and their lifetime pensions? Does any Congressman get a salary for being in Congress equal to the salary of the CEO's of the Big3? Look that up and tell us what each gets paid; doesn't need to be exact. How come pur Public Servants never have to share the pain? Yes I do agree with you somewhat. The public sector is usually immune as they have the power to keep increasing our taxes, or running future generations into an increasing, crushing debt. But that is still no excuse for allowing others the same unfair benefit. We need to start setting the example that whether you are a CEO, a Congressman, or a banker, you are not entitled to excessive pay and privileges. I just see that we need to start making these people face that "The Buck Stops With You" for your organization and its actions/situation, and go the other way. So instead of A got this deal, so B should too, why can't we moderate what B gets, and use that as a public example to force A to be more of an ethical-model. Lets push to improve ethics, not make them worse!
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Replying to: nvbanker (Nov 26, 2008 11:09 am) I think you have to know what I think of the 110th Congress. The worst in the History of the USA. Those two are the ringleader idiots. I about had the big one when she insisted on having her own 747 to haul people cross country in. I would have given her a Cessna 150 with half a tank of gas. |
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More specifically, why the Ford family doesn't want a bailout (they'd lose control since their measly pile of stock has super voting power). Ford family being tested by auto crisis (Staightline) |
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| I'm no nationally recognized economist by any stretch of the imagination, but I do know that every stupid financial decision that I have ever made was paid for by me, and no entity, governmental or otherwise, bailed me out. I couldn't just print more money to take care of the problem, either. Maybe it's time that the foxes that are watching the hen house in Washington should let businesses, banks, etc. stand or fall on their own, just like the rest of us poor slobs. JMO. | |
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Replying to: steve_ (Nov 26, 2008 9:51 am) I don't think consolidating luxury brands is going to do a lot. GM probably has at least 3 more brands than they need. Ford could kill Mercury and no one would care. Unless they address some of their real cost issues (e.g., the jobs bank and way too many dealers), they are never going to make it. And as a retiree from a tier 1 supplier, I think that would be a shame and a disaster. |
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Replying to: nvbanker (Nov 26, 2008 11:09 am) What part of "Pelosi and Reid" are not the ones asking for loans or bailouts do you people don't understand! There is no correlation between the Congress jets and the Big Three jets. Congress is not asking for a loan or a bailout. At least not yet. Get off the jet thing and focus on the tasks at hand.
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Replying to: rogeliov (Nov 26, 2008 4:54 pm) Actually the way Congress gives themselves entitlements is a national problem and disgrace. Beyond salary and retirement, beyond not being responsible for improper actions (aiding the FannieMae and FreddieMac improper loans), they live large on our money. If wevdon't want to talk jets, perhaps limosines and special treatment in DC is more suitable for congress. Having people who had their morning delivery to the Capitol Hill try to minimize the importance of the (overpaid) executives because they flew in on jets is hilarious hypocritical. Do we think Nancy and Harry carpooled in a DC taxi to get to the Hill that morning? |
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