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Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?

3958 messages,  Last post on Oct 02, 2009 at 4:52 PM

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#666 of 3958 Re: To all Big 3 Employees/Retirees/Dealers [berri] by steve_ HOST Nov 20, 2008 (7:18 pm)
Replying to: berri (Nov 20, 2008 6:49 pm) The first $25B was to be devoted to R&D, especially fuel efficient things that would appeal to the greens. Bush is just trying to stick it to the environmentalists, just like he'll try to stick it to them in the next two months when he'll start signing all his lame duck executive orders. I don't reasonable compromise entered his mind.
#667 of 3958 Re: The B word [pf_flyer] by kdhspyder Nov 20, 2008 (8:00 pm)
Replying to: pf_flyer (Nov 20, 2008 5:52 am) Just a gut guess, but I'm thinking that any "bailout" package is going to void UAW contracts and force labor costs back into line. And if there's resistance to that, then the other option is a REAL bankruptcy filing which will get the automaker out from under those contracts.   That was the point of a prior post I made. If the bailout does occur it cannot just void the three legal contract that the UAW has in place. Unless the UAW agrees to reopen the negotiations the D3 are stuck with those contracts....unless they go BK.   If I was Gettlefinger I wouldn't budge. I'd want part of that $25 Billion for myself and my members. Otherwise nyet.
#668 of 3958 Re: A previous poster is quoted below. [rangerover2] by kdhspyder Nov 20, 2008 (8:26 pm)
Replying to: rangerover2 (Nov 20, 2008 5:03 pm) This paragraph is at the heart of your presentation and it's basically flawed so your conclusion is erroneous....   The Big 3 have problems but they did not get into this state by themselves. The U.S. government with their Free Trade policies and inept healthcare policies does not help. Anyone can setup shop with no import penalities, no legacy costs and Government sponsorship (Japanes & U.S. State governments looking for an import plant).   Absolutely, absolutely wrong. The detroiters got into the cost, health benefit, unbalanced product portfolion all by themselves. There are hundreds of thousands of other business that have been in existence since the 50's when the irrevocable slide began in Detroit. Many of these business like MS and Intel and Boeing and GE and others just got it right and didn't sell out to the union in order to keep the peace. Look at CAT.   No the detoiters did it to themselves because they weren't willing to make tough decisons. Everyone else in the US was operating under the same system of rules and regs as the vehicles makers. It's just that the detroiters screwed themselves. Replies to this message: elroy5 (Nov 20, 2008 9:18 pm)
#669 of 3958 Re: A previous poster is quoted below. [kdhspyder] by elroy5 Nov 20, 2008 (9:18 pm)
Replying to: kdhspyder (Nov 20, 2008 8:26 pm) GM needs a total re-structuring, and re-negotiating of contracts. The ONLY way this will happen is Chapter 11. The government will never force these tough actions, and GM will never do it on their own. 11, it's the only answer. If we give them $25 billion now, they will only be back for more later. A line has to be drawn, and this is it.
#670 of 3958 Re: Standard of the World [joel0622] by sellaturcica Nov 21, 2008 (12:35 am)
Replying to: joel0622 (Nov 20, 2008 8:54 am) There's only 2 cars on your bestselling list of 5 cars, and if anyone ever thought the Escort was the best car in its class I don't know who it was. How many fleet and rental sales must have made the Escort the best seller? That's the kind of thing I am talking about, they didn't have the BEST car in the class, they may have had the bestseller, but they could never charge a premium for the Escort.   "F150 Taurus Ranger Escort E150 Explorer"
#671 of 3958 Idea mill by pf_flyer HOST Nov 21, 2008 (7:10 am)
Looking into the idea of a "pre-pack" bankruptcy procedure? Is this along the line of my thought of a non-bankruptcy bankruptcy? http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aRfqFMhlj5lk&refer=worldwide-   We keep trying to create new "instruments" to deal with things, don't we?
#672 of 3958 Reverse card check by xrunner2 Nov 21, 2008 (8:00 am)
Replying to: gmctruck (Nov 20, 2008 9:53 am) Until the big 3 and the UAW are willing to set aside their arrogance and stubbornness, there will be no viable solutions put on the table.   UAW kind of in a big poker game. I wonder how many of its members are really in touch with reality on this whole situation. Do majority support Gettlefinger? Would many of them sign a reverse "Card Check", if there was one, to eliminate UAW representation and take their chances with Big 3 high management to be fair and equitable as Honda and Toyota apparently are? Or, are UAW members so brainwashed by the union to not trust any company management whether Big 3 or any other company.   But, of course, there still is the issue of GM having redundant brands, too many models, too many dealers, contractural agreements with dealers, etc that have to be solved.
#673 of 3958 the UAW actually think they OWN the big 3 by dave8697 Nov 21, 2008 (9:36 am)
They think that if after getting their $73 an hour, there is anything left over, mgmt can decide how to split it up. If it is a net loss, then mgmt eats it. They don't see how anything can ever effect this situation and therefore see no need to negotiate any changes. If GM goes belly up, they fall back on their US gov't guaranteed pensions.   When mgmt sees 'a not worth saving business unit' popping it's ugly head, they can close a plant and shed just those workers. Then they develop a replacement product that is different and grow it from start outside the UAW grips. Mexico, Portugal, Brazil, etc.   Salary GM workers are mad as hell about this. Their great labors are spent on a totally broken system. They are unprotected and can be eliminated at any time, yet they are expected to pull off miracles to somehow put a product into the market that can compete after a $26 an hour labor cost disadvantage. To have held onto 29% of the US car market in spite of that disadvantage is quite an accomplishment and shows how American workers can be the best in the world. Just think what they could do with a level playing field!!   The month delay in a bailout is a bad move. To ask for a better plan means having to show how to compete with all their handicaps, including the $26 an hour extra labor expense and all the legacy pensions and health care. Most people still don't know that the UAW has always gotten 100% health care for the bridge years between their last work day and when they turn 65. The list of places that also give that benefit is also a list of BK entities, starting with the US Congress, and some NE municipalities. Replies to this message: nippononly (Nov 21, 2008 10:06 am) gagrice (Nov 21, 2008 11:51 am)
#674 of 3958 Re: the UAW actually think they OWN the big 3 [dave8697] by nippononly Nov 21, 2008 (10:06 am)
Replying to: dave8697 (Nov 21, 2008 9:36 am) To have held onto 29% of the US car market in spite of that disadvantage is quite an accomplishment   GM market share is currently at 22%.
#675 of 3958 If it's a poker game.. by pf_flyer HOST Nov 21, 2008 (10:42 am)
... did the UAW just blink?   Say What?   Replies to this message: nippononly (Nov 21, 2008 11:46 am) grbeck (Nov 21, 2008 1:49 pm)

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