- #643 of 3958
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Re: Have to see if this plays [pf_flyer]
by fezo
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Nov 20, 2008 (10:33 am)
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Replying to: pf_flyer (Nov 20, 2008 10:22 am)
Yeah, it looks like the compromise is what Bush wanted to do - divert the retooling money into the bailout. Of course come February we will then "owe" them another $25 billion.
This is like when you r kid asks for $20 for gas and you only have 10 and give it to him and he says "That's OK . You can owe me."
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- #644 of 3958
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Re: Have to see if this plays [fezo]
by euphonium
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Nov 20, 2008 (10:45 am)
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Replying to: fezo (Nov 20, 2008 10:33 am)
Then when the kid runs out of gas, he calls for you to rescue him again after he knows he went too far in the first place.
Alcoholism isn't cured by giving the drunk a drink.
Bailing anybody is being an enabler.
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- #645 of 3958
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How to not enable
by pf_flyer HOST
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Nov 20, 2008 (10:52 am)
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I think if they don't put REAL strict limits on how the money is used, changes we need to see, etc., then we need to remind the politicos of one thing...
The 2010 elections
I think people are angry enough that this time it's not going to be an idle threat against Congress. Do the job WE want you to do or you'll be looking for a real job 
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- #646 of 3958
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Re: A previous poster is quoted below. [euphonium]
by jpf
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Nov 20, 2008 (10:53 am)
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Replying to: euphonium (Nov 20, 2008 9:02 am)
So, let's get real tough. Let Ford, GM, and Chrysler fail. That's say 300,000 to 400,000 people unemployed. Now, throw in the 30% to 40% of the dealers that will go under, another say 100,000 unemployed people. Many of the parts suppliers who supply GM, Ford and Chrysler also supply Toyota's, Honda's, and Nissan's domestic production. These businesses can not survive if they lose their business to the Detroit 3. Thus, Toyota's, Honda's, and Nissan's plants will come to a standstill as well. How many more thousands of people will be thrown out of work? Can you say another Great Depression? Further, if you think we live in a true capitalistic society, dream on. Let's see, our agricultural sector is totally subsidized, likewise perks given to the defense industry, the bailout of banks, etc. The fact is we can fix the Detroit 3 by making it a Detroit 2 and forcing the rationalizing upon them that that they desparately need.
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- #647 of 3958
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Re: A previous poster is quoted below. [jpf]
by euphonium
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Nov 20, 2008 (11:05 am)
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Replying to: jpf (Nov 20, 2008 10:53 am)
Prepare to witness, then, the awesome capacity of an unreformed Detroit to consume taxpayer billions with nothing to show for it.
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- #648 of 3958
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Re: Gettlefinger [pf_flyer]
by jae5
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Nov 20, 2008 (11:06 am)
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Replying to: pf_flyer (Nov 20, 2008 9:30 am)
I gathered that as well listening / watching them the past two days. Gettlefinger flat-out stated that the concessions already made (to begin in 2010) were already in place and there was no need to make any more. Really blamed the management for this fiasco, who in turn blamed the financial crisis for their needing money.
To me it seems the CEOs and Gettlefinger are shooting themselves in the foot with their actions, arrogance and 1950s thinking (with the possible exception of Mulally). With Wagoner's comments / thoughts about resignation, acting as though he's playing the Neo character from "The Matrix" in the way he dodges any questions about having a plan in place for long-term profitability, GM may be done. He looks like a deer in headlights to me. And I don't think they made an impression by coming in with prepared statements that were obviously written by someone in marketing and sales. I mean, it's all right to have crib notes of a speech you prepared, and glance down every now and again to remember the fine points, but to not be able to look your audience in the eyes because you're too busy looking down at your speech doesn't exude readiness and knowledge of the subject matter at hand. They weren't even passionate while making those speeches; I mean, the professor was more passionate and he kind of looked like death warmed-over!! And where were the suppliers? These guys should have had some of their core and smaller suppliers there, or at least letters from them.
And with what's been happening with the TARP, AIG, getting fooled by Paulson, their own stupidity and all the other mistakes Congress made just giving the banks money, they need to posture and beat on somebody and unfortunately it's these people.
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- #649 of 3958
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Re: A previous poster is quoted below. [jpf]
by berri
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Nov 20, 2008 (11:51 am)
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Replying to: jpf (Nov 20, 2008 10:53 am)
The sad truth that many don't seem to understand is that the Detroit 3 will have a tough time doing a Chapter 11 because of their lack of cash flow versus the huge lawyer and accounting firm costs that will be entailed. That means a strong probability of Chapter 7 and all the ugly things that will come with that. Its not just unemployment and economic costs. If you look at history, it takes awhile for sudden lost capacity to be replaced. That likely means a several year period of vehicle shortages and much higher purchase prices due to the reduced competition brought on by the reduced supply and the startup and/or expansion costs of new or remaining producers and suppliers. In the short term the $25B in LOANS (not cash give aways) is probably the better way to go, but consolidation needs to take place over time. Besides, Uncle made a tidy profit off the the Chrysler loans in the 80's.
As for the UAW, I'm not in a position to really know whether their primary cost issue is salary, benefits or excessive work rules and restrictions. However, if the government is hitting the auto workers, it seems to me that they should be doing the same thing to the Wall Street and other financial people and their $700B bailout. Detroit's loan is puny compared to what the banks and financial service companies are getting, and I haven't seen any indication that the finance world is changing their ways either!
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- #650 of 3958
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Re: A previous poster is quoted below. [jpf]
by gmctruck
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Nov 20, 2008 (12:02 pm)
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Replying to: jpf (Nov 20, 2008 10:53 am)
We're not talking about shutting the big 3 down completely. Bankruptcy would allow them time to restructure their business and make the necessary changes.
Mulally from Ford is OK, but Wagoner needs to go and then bring in someone with a viable business plan and the guts to make the necessary changes at GM to expedite it's recovery. It's long past time for Wagoner to retire.
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- #651 of 3958
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Re: A previous poster is quoted below. [gmctruck]
by berri
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Nov 20, 2008 (12:16 pm)
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Replying to: gmctruck (Nov 20, 2008 12:02 pm)
Unfortunately, Chapter 7 often ends up in a rather fast fall and demise whether intended or not. I'm not sure that GM or Chrysler have the cash flow and time to wait out a thorough restructuring. And once bankruptcy hits, lawsuits start flying and the company has less time and resources to focus on restructuring. Also control is usually ceded to the courts. It really isn't all that easy to successfully navigate the bankruptcy game that is often filled with unexpected problems and complications. An awful lot of Chapter 11's don't make it through restructure. Politicians know this since most are lawyers, but its easy and expedient to flaunt bankruptcy as the "solution" to most people that aren't knowledgeable of the real process.
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- #652 of 3958
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Re: A previous poster is quoted below. [gmctruck]
by joel0622
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Nov 20, 2008 (12:19 pm)
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Replying to: gmctruck (Nov 20, 2008 12:02 pm)
I think it is pretty arogantof them to sit there and belittle the group on how they run there business. Whats the National Debt right now??????
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