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Automotive News & Views Do You Favor A Government Loan To The Detroit 3?
3958 messages, Last post on Oct 02, 2009 at 4:52 PM
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Replying to: lemko (Dec 13, 2008 2:30 pm) Lem, I have had Fords, GMs and Chryslers for most of my life. No real problems, some like my 1988 Corsica fell apart after about 60,000 miles, but I was quite satisfied. Then my wife tried out a 1999 Mercedes. We had a loaner that was 10 years old while her car came in. That 10 year old loaner was better than any American car I had owned or rented, including Cadillacs. I would rather have a car like a Jetta that has some engineering, some joy of driving, some feel of the road, basic safety features added at no optional cost - like traction control and multiple airbags - than a Cadillac. I don't think you have ever driven a Maxima, Infinity, Accura, BMW or Mercedes or you wouldn't think so highly of GM. I have rented new Impalas and Buicks and they are boxes on wheels, with no feel for the road, built by people who want to build a car that can just pass the most basic consumer test, lots of metal and an exterior show of being comparable, but in truth, sadly lacking. Bail outs or loans, it doesn't matter, the cars have to vastly improve before people are going to buy them and trust the D3 again.
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Replying to: fintail (Dec 14, 2008 7:38 am) I just find it amusing that we are still in the midst of one of the most criminal "bailouts" in the history of the world, and are decades deep into some of the worst foreign aid and intervention policies in human history, and the idea of spending a fraction of it to aid a domestic industry receives far more castigation than decisions a million times more destructive. The logic is if you don't like the past 99 bad decisions, why do you support bad decision #100? I don't support all 100! Each and every time, I'd say - no. You seem to use the last 99 bad decisions, to then say well I like who's getting #100. You're playing favorites, for some sort of revenge/jealousy reason. And if #101 is for farmer subsidies, and #102 is for oil company subsidies and #103 is for construction company subsidies, I'm against it. I'm not going to pick and choose what waste or giveaways I like. Be against them all.
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Replying to: driver100 (Dec 14, 2008 8:36 am) That has pretty much been my experience too. When I had a 2000 Jetta GLS Tdi, I compared it to my grandpa's 2000 Park Ave that cost $15k more. What a joke. The fit-n-finish along with the quality of materials and the tactile feel of the switchgear in the Jetta were worlds ahead of the Park Ave. The only advantage the Park Ave had was it was huge in comparison and it had sofa comfy seats. While VW reliability is often questioned, I didn't have any trouble with mine, and my grandpa's Park Ave was always in the shop with various expensive failures. I'd bet a '00 Jetta TDI has a resale value that's probably double that of a '00 Park Ave now. It was the same way when I owned an '01 Nissan Pathfinder and a '00 Suburban simultaneously. The Pathfinder shamed the Suburban in terms of materials, fit-n-finish, ride control, powertrain refinement, and the PF felt like a bank fault in terms of overall tightness when compared to the Suburban. I'd drive them on washboard surfaces on a gravel road I often traveled that the Pathfinder could go 50 mph on while driving with one hand, that the Suburban would literally start to self-destruct with the suspension slamming all over the place and the dash literally reverberating to the point parts would fall of at 25 mph. I'd have to drive with both hands to maintain control. It was that bad. One time I actually had the overhead console that enclosed the rear HVAC controls fall from the ceiling while driving down that dirt road. It got to the point if I had to go that way, I'd only take the PF, and when I turned the PF in on lease, I would avoid that road with the Suburban. Now that was nearly 10 years ago and GMs newer interior designs and refinement seem to be much better.
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Replying to: kernick (Dec 14, 2008 8:42 am)
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Replying to: driver100 (Dec 14, 2008 8:36 am) I did consider a new 1989 Mercedes 560SEL right around the time I bought my 1989 Cadillac Brougham, but the car was $73,600 - more than twice what I paid for my Caddy. It was a good car and the W126 generation seemed like the last really great Mercedes. The 1992 generation S-Class was an overwrought tank currently favored by Russian mafiosi in NE Philly. My brother-in-law has a 2000 S430 that has been plagued by problems ever since he had it. It didn't bode well when I saw it for the first time, opened the passenger door, and the sill plate fell off. Maxima = cheesy Nissan interior and bizarre styling. Infinity = Styled by space aliens. Acura = Honda Deluxe. The RL would've been nice had they put a V-8 in it instead of a puny V-6. BMW = Absolutely deplore the image that goes with the car and absolutely fear the repair and maintenance costs. They once were somewhat attractive until Bangle ruined them. You might not think much of my Buicks, but they are extremely reliable, durable, and I can depend on them getting me to work for decades.
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Replying to: dieselone (Dec 14, 2008 8:54 am) It hasn't changed very much. I had to drive a 3 year old Suburban a few months ago. I don't think there is any engineering in that vehicle. The seats are comfortable and you have a lot of steel that might help in case of an accident. No feel for the road, thin steering wheel, no logic to the placement of instruments. I couldn't wait to get out of it. There is a lack of engineering and pride. The attitude is design it and get it on the road the cheapest way possible - with parts from the lowest bidder.
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Replying to: lemko (Dec 14, 2008 9:47 am) Too bad you tried the Mercedes in 1989, because the prices dropped dramatically in 1999 beginning with the lower priced C class. I have driven Infinities and Maximas and though they have state of the art engineering, they are too jazzy for my tastes. If you are comparing a 1994 Jetta to a Cadillac isn't quite fair, you'd have to compare it to a Cavalier or X-car, and they weren't award winners either. I had a real image problem with a BMW too, that's why we went with a Mercedes in 99. We traded in a my wife's Ford built 1995 Volvo which was the worst car we ever had. I still bought Jeeps and when it was time to trade I thought I would just try an X3 - though I knew it was just to satisfy my curiosity. The image thing was very difficult for me to overcome - I like to think of myself as a regular guy - and basically I am. I got into an X3 for a test drive and I didn't want to get out. I loved my 2 Jeeps, but there was no comparison. I couldn't go back to an American car now. And the image thing, well, it is just an image, I haven't changed one bit......but I do appreciate the engineering and thought that goes into making a fine car. |
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Replying to: driver100 (Dec 14, 2008 9:54 am) That would been basically the same as my 2000 Suburban, and yes those are trash. The 2007 is much much better. Reliability aside, I'd much rather have a 2000 Passat over any GM sedan of that year. I can't think of one GM sedan in 2000 that is worth a crap. I know that will make Lemko gag, but I'm sorry, that's how I see it. Reliability to me has very little bearing on how desirable a car is. I'd prefer a bicycle over driving something like a late 80's to early '00 Buick. I've driven enough Park Aves and LeSabre's to know those cars are lousy in many ways. I have an uncle that still drives a 2000 Passat GLX that he bought new in 2000. He's pushing 200k on it. Sure, it hasn't been smooth sailing as he has had some mechanical failures, but fit-n-finish and build quality shame cars like my wife's 07 Grand Prix, that 10 year old VW is quieter, much more solid than the GP. Not to mention interior quality, no comparison. |
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Replying to: driver100 (Dec 14, 2008 10:11 am) ford didn't buy volvo until 1999. 
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Replying to: explorerx4 (Dec 14, 2008 11:33 am) 1) Volvo was purchased in 1999 by Ford, I stand corrected. My wife really liked her 2 previous Volvos before buying her 1995 and she didn't like it from the beginning...she said it handled like a big American car. When the lease was up I suppose I heard Ford was buying Volvo and I guess it made an impression on my brain that this lemon of a Volvo was only going to get worse once Ford got their hands on it. 2)Right on the 2nd count too, except for a faulty memory, I am still a regular guy. 
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