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Smart Shopper Got a Quick Question for a Car Dealer?
2394 messages, Last post on Nov 03, 2009 at 11:03 AM
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Replying to: boomchek (Jan 24, 2009 9:51 am) Look the discount really depends on how much the dealer is into the car for. If they paid too much for it on a trade either because it's a museum quality piece worth every penny, or because they needed to make a deal happen, there's not going to sell it at a certain price because black book says this or that. The highlighted clause was what I was referring to. Just because a dealer over allowed on a car to make his monthly bonus goals, that doesn’t mean that a customer should pay more for this car when they buy it used. Another thing that fascinates me is when salespeople complain about the cost of the repairs and reconditioning. If the dealer didn’t notice those problems at trade-in time and paid too much for the car; it is dealer’s problem, not customer’s.
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Replying to: exb0 (Jan 24, 2009 7:56 am) Sounds reasonable. I think that would generally put the value of a car between Edmunds trade-in value and private party. |
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Replying to: exb0 (Jan 24, 2009 10:11 am) Costs of repairs and reconditioning are real, and they add cost to vehicles. When it comes down to grinding to the last dollar and everything all the costs are out in the open, then yes these things will come up.
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Replying to: boomchek (Jan 24, 2009 11:25 am) I had that happen with a dealer down year ages ago. All he wanted to show me was how much he had into this car. He had receipts for all sorts of stuff he'd done. No matter what I said that's all he came back to. Since he couldn't get into where the real market was I just went elsewhere.
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Replying to: fezo (Jan 24, 2009 11:30 am) What I am saying is that, from buyers’ point of view, the reverse is true. Guides that are based on auction values represent the true market, and buyers should negotiate relative to that value; just like they should negotiate relative to the invoice and not MSRP. If the dealer refuses to deal with reality, then walk. Let them wait for an ignorant customer, or take the car to the wholesale auction where they’ll lose even more.
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Replying to: exb0 (Jan 25, 2009 8:18 am) Now if you were talking about the auction RESULTS, the "raw numbers" that Manheim issues on computer, that's a bit different than a "guide". A guide is like processed cheese, and the raw data has been plugged into formulas, and massaged this way and that, into compromises. But Manheim's raw data is just a list of what people paid at dealer auctions, listed by miles, equipment, etc. And even THERE you find price variations on a list of ten Saabs auctioned one right after the other.
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Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Jan 25, 2009 9:20 am)  I know guides are not perfect and there are better resources of information out there. However, Manheim's raw data is not available to regular buyers. The Black Book Online is available with some research. http://www.cudlautosmart.com/Research/TradeInValues.aspx?WT.svl=SubMenu This “guide”, as imperfect as it is, is still better than relying on dealers’ asking prices to determine what the market value of a car really is. If the Black Book Guide is so imperfect, why is it that every UCM that I have ever met has one in his pocket? But regardless, as a buyer with little knowledge of the market, would you rather base your offer on a wholesale “guide” value + X, or dealer’s asking price – X?
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Replying to: exb0 (Jan 25, 2009 12:31 pm) All new cars are the same, every used car is different. That's the mantra a car dealer will tell you, and you know, he's right. The dealer's "asking prices" are just him exercising his first amendment rights. He can ask whatever he wants. It's the buyer who sets the market price, not the guides, not the dealer. The guides' opinions and the dealer's opinions are *reflections* of what the buyer has already determined. If the dealer can sell a car repeatedly "over book" that means the guides are not in step with a sudden feverish demand. If the dealer's prices are too high and the cars "rot on the lot", then he goes out of business. Last of all, different guides showing different pricing based on what they are trying to accomplish. Guide X might show private party retail averages, Guide Y might show dealer REALIZED prices, Guide Z might show dealer ASKING prices as reported. Guide W might show auction wholesale pricing. Which one is right? They ALL ARE!
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Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Jan 25, 2009 12:41 pm) This thread was started by a buyer who asked a question of how much over the Black Book should I offer. A salesman’s response was, which I think was a bit self serving, don’t worry about the Black Book and just make an offer relative to the asking price because sometimes we pay more for cars than we should. I am paraphrasing here, but this is basically the topic of the thread. I still say that that buyer will be better served if he goes with his gut and makes an offer from Black Book plus rather than the asking price minus. I am not talking about any other guides, but the Black Book. The reason it has more credibility in my eyes, is because UCMs use to appraise trade-ins.
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Replying to: exb0 (Jan 25, 2009 3:16 pm)  All I'm saying is that the "Black Book" is a very rough guide. It doesn't/can't pinpoint the actual car you are looking at. Now, agreed, if there is a LARGE database and if the car is only 2-3 years old, the Black Book or whatever book is a good place to start, as it is more "disinterested" than the dealer. However, don't be outraged or surprised if you offer Black Book and the dealer does not come anywhere near that price, because he may know more about market conditions and the specifics of the car he is selling than the Black Book does. I still advise that the *best* tool is to use Autotrader, and mash up 100 comparables for sale and average them out, then deduct 10-15% for these "asking prices" and I bet you'll be more likely to make an acceptable offer. If you rely *strictly* on the Black Book, and pay no attention to comps, you are using a fairly clumsy tool IMO.
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