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Automotive News & Views What Would It Take for YOU to buy a diesel car?
1503 messages, Last post on Nov 14, 2009 at 1:11 PM
You are in the Automotive News & Views Forum. Your Hosts are steve_ & claires
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C&D has a comparo of 4 hybrid midsize sedans, including the new Fusion which did outstandingly. In it they have a half-page comparison between hybrid and diesel, and their conclusion is that at the time they wrote the article, hybrid was the clear winner because the price of diesel was (and still is today) so much higher than regular unleaded. While people are writing articles like that, diesel passenger cars will have a hard time getting off the ground I think. |
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Replying to: gregg_vw (Jan 06, 2009 6:09 am) If it were me, I'd do the injectors upgrade first, then the chip. I believe the Rocket Chip guy that does the traveling local GTG's, and the "custom" tuning is really the ticket Charlie (Kerma)!! also does the circuit and I have met both of them at a few GTG's. If not, both offer quick turn Fed Ex type services, so your car is down the minimum amount of time. |
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Replying to: alltorque (Jan 06, 2009 3:02 am) Still about a buck difference between RUG and diesel here in Boise.
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Replying to: bpeebles (Jan 05, 2009 5:02 pm) Your append saddens me... you are a host here on edmunds yet you do not seem to understand the economics of COST PER MILE. You need to IGNORE the cost per gallon... it is nearly irrelivant. I have a spreadsheet tracking every drop of fuel run thru my 2003 TDI. The overall fuel cost per mile is $0.05 Again, this is OVERALL cost from day1 of ownership over 100,000 miles.... not just a spike or best. (The best is $0.03) You are correct; it's all about cost per mile, not cost per gallon. I have almost 60K on my '03 Passat. I run only the recommended premium fuel through it and have kept track of all of my expenses as well: Since 11/2002 through today, fuel is costing me $0.111 per mile, with my personal best being $0.058 per mile. Worst was $0.19 per mile, when gas reached $4.10 per gallon with a heavy city bias. Maintenance, for the same date range, is at $0.065 per mile, excluding oil changes. Tires are killing my average, being on my fourth set. Tires account for $0.028 per mile. Oil changes, all done within the 5,000 mile recommended OCI, is at $0.011. Overall, my car costs $0.186 per mile. I wished I could recreate my entire spreadsheet with diesel pricing. But looking at my most recent gas purchase - I drove 296.1 miles at 21.22 MPG, rendering a per mile cost of $0.092. Using the EPA posted urban mileage for the TDI Jetta of 29 MPG and the pump cost of $2.699 per gallon, then the cost would have been $0.093, or a bit more than the PUG cost. If one would use the AMCI urban value of 38 MPG that VWoA touts, then the cost would have been $0.071 per mile. At my 10,000 miles a year, that's anual savings of $220 (keeping a whole lot of assumptions in place!). I keep a car ten years, so $2,200. I still keep coming around to the idea of buying a diesel Jetta wagon to replace my wife's Accord. She, on the other hand, is more interested in an Oddy minivan. What I love to see is a minivan with a TDI engine. VWoA, you are missing your niche! Give me a minivan that gets my current mileage of 21 city and 32 highway, and you'll have me signing up. |
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Replying to: gregg_vw (Jan 06, 2009 6:09 am) A chip can't increase power and mileage across the board at the same time. When the dyno shows the HP above stock, the fuel/air analyzer will show the mileage below stock. You can for instance get a remarkable 26 mpg on a new Corvette, but you will be pussy-footing in 6th gear at 1800 rpm. The HP of the Corvette is IN THERE all right, but you will pay for it in fuel consumption. Some chips are great, some are bogus, but none defy the laws of physics that I'm aware of. RE: The "odd duck" 335D. You are talking about Europe. That's whole different ball game for a diesel passenger car. They have lower diesel prices vs. gas prices, they have a long tradition of diesel passenger car use, and they LIKE diesel cars. None of the above apply to the USA (as of yet). RE: Passat --- gas Passats have good resale, too. The TDI is a great little car but really, the reason the resale is high is because of supply vs. demand, not because it's a diesel per se. There aren't that many out there, and there are just a few more buyers than sellers apparently. This is not the same as thinking that if you increased the supply dramatically, you'd get a dramatic increase in diesel buyers. All you'd do is satisfy those few who still want them but can't find 'em right now. I think we're all beating the same dead horse. Diesel cars are not going to make a dent in the US market until a) their price goes down b) their quality goes up and c) diesel fuel prices drop. Europe as already achieved these things. They have great little affordable diesel hatches and they can save a lot of money using diesel fuel (except maybe in parts of UK, etc.--or so I'm told).
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Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Jan 06, 2009 9:26 am) In any event, talk to those who have gotten RocketChipped before you assert your royal "a chip cannot increase mileage and hp at the same time." Of course it can, but it doesn't have to. Depends on the application, how well matched to the vehicle and how that vehicle is driven. I already know that if I chip my car and then drive mostly with a heavy foot, my mileage will suffer. For me, the extra hp and torque would only be there for those odd occasions where a little more oomph would be useful. In the meantime, where diesels do best mileage-wise (as well as Corvettes in sixth gear) is where I will see an actual mpg increase: steady highway speeds. You make some very good points about Americans, diesels and price v. availability. TDI prices ARE high because there aren't that many takers in the scheme of things--and those of us who are takers have to take what we get (and that includes both higher initial cost and much higher resale). But you also throw in the kitchen sink with blanket statements about chips. TDI guys are a very dedicated lot and much has been learned through the regional meets, trial and error, blogging, sharing, keeping logs. It may not interest you and that's fine, but before you say you know better about chips than those who manufacture and use them, at least take a look at the data. |
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I think you two are just on the tip of converging. Allow me to push. This statement is true: "A chip cannot increase mileage and hp at the EXACT same time" Meaning, you will not get higher gas mileage from a chipped car when the throttle is wide open than you will with a non-chipped car WHEN THE THROTTLE IS WIDE OPEN. This statement is also true: "A chip can increase mileage in one moment and hp at another moment" Meaning, a chipped car will have more power at WOT AND CAN ALSO provide higher mileage under normal operating circumstances and speeds. Is that a good summary?
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Replying to: larsb (Jan 06, 2009 10:29 am) What I was saying is that no chip in the world could allow my car to make me go faster 0-60 all day long and yet record a higher average gas mileage at the end of a month. The chip is merely manipulating what is possible in the engine. The chip is not "creating" more power out of thin air, and in giving better fuel mileage, is working outside of manufacturer's specs for reliability or drivability. I find the notion that a chip is "outsmarting" factory engineers to be unfounded. The chip maker and the factory engineer have different goals and the chipped car is not a "better" car necessarily. It just changes the compromises is all. You want to run leaner mixtures, or higher turbo boost, or longer shift points...okay fine, as long as you accept the compromises. Besides, often these chips require other mods which are not unsubstantial. |
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Replying to: Mr_Shiftright (Jan 06, 2009 10:39 am)
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Replying to: gregg_vw (Jan 06, 2009 11:03 am) "Chipping a car is an easy way to make more horsepower and get better fuel mileage reliably. " "Extracts Every Energy Possible From Fuel Molecules, Increases Miles-Per-Gallon At Part Throttle And Horsepower At Wide-Open Throttle"
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