Last post on May 13, 2013 at 5:35 PM
You are in the Saturn Outlook
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Saturn Outlook, SUV
#410 of 487 Re: 2007 saturn outlook sunroof leak [gmcustsvcsarah]
Jul 05, 2012 (11:55 am)
I bought a 2008 Outlook certified used in Sept. 2011 from a dealership with less than 34000 miles on it. Now the trough or channel in front inside where the sunroof is mounted is filling with water. It overflows into the headliner, runs down the windshield and drips in to the dashboard and floor. The dealership offer to leak test it for $105. I see there is a bulletin for a VIN range that my vehicle does not fall within. The repair is for replacment of drain tubes. Other forums have owners complaining that the fix doesn't work. NHTSA has 16 cases of this for just this model year. I hate to pay for a problem caused by poor engineering. Not fair for a known problem. What can be done for me?
#411 of 487 Re: SATURN Outlook 2008 Sun Roof Leak [grafin_lupus]
Jul 05, 2012 (12:04 pm)
You should not have to pay a dime!! From my extensive research this has happened to cars that VIN #'s are NOT included. This is a huge productive flaw that GM is VERY aware of. Unfortunately, because there has been no Class Action YET to address these horrific issues these cars are being traded in with existing water leak issues which falls on the next the consumer with devastating results to say the least. This problems in my opinion fall under the "Secret Warranties."
Call GM!! Good luck to you and stay strong!! Research as much as you can before talking to GM and don't let them tell you that you have to keep those drains clean.
If you live in California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia or Wisconsin you have added protection.
States with Secret Warranty protection:
In order to protect consumers from undisclosed defects, five states (California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia, and Wisconsin) have enacted secret warranty laws and other states are considering secret warranty legislation.
Uncovering Secret Warranties:
Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.
In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.
By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.
What is a secret warranty?
Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.
Examples of Secret Warranties
CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.
CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.
Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.
There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider told CAS that Honda has only one secret warranty book for each of its regions. The book is chained to a desk. Every page has the region's number superimposed on it so that any photo of a book page would show the region from which it came.
But it is known that the regulatory climate has been very favorable to the automakers since 1980. Furthermore, secret warranties are viewed by the automakers as an effective tool to maintain good customer relations. Loyal customers and customers that complain loudly and persistently are rewarded. Other consumers get saddled with repair costs caused by the manufacturers' mistakes.
No Uniform Law Requires Secret Warranty Disclosure
No federal law requires auto companies to disclose secret warranties. In the late 1970's, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sought to litigate individual secret warranties against each auto company beginning with piston scuffing and cracked blocks in 1976-78 Fords. The FTC settled its case by requiring Ford to notify and directly compensate owners according to the secret warranty policy and to notify all future
#412 of 487 Re: SATURN Outlook 2008 Sun Roof Leak [nancy1960]
Jul 05, 2012 (12:41 pm)
Thank you for your encouragement and information. I have an appointment at a different dealership than the one that gave me the outrageous quote. They have serviced my husband's car there and say they will try to "help me out". I did call GM customer assistance and got a case #. I will try to keep this forum posted as to status of this case.
#415 of 487 Re: How to unclog drain tubes on 2008 Outlook [wowelsh]
Jul 11, 2012 (9:22 am)
Any luck finding any info on clearing the drain tubes? If it's as simple as blowing them out with compressed air periodically, I'd do it myself.
#416 of 487 Re: How to unclog drain tubes on 2008 Outlook [domp]
Jul 11, 2012 (1:22 pm)
Blowing them out with compressed air is exactly what I did. Worked fine but its too bad that the design is so poor that this is necessary. In a heavy downpour they may still not drain fast enough.
#417 of 487 Re: sunroof leak on my 2007 saturn [lakegal]
Jul 14, 2012 (3:09 pm)
Yep but unfortunately gm doesn't want to issue a recall for this or headlight problems or transmission or any other known problems for a lot of people I guess they just don't believe in standing behind their products integrity gains trust and business, just sayin i am with u all on these problems and all they say is sorry actions speak louder than words.
Jul 14, 2012 (3:15 pm)
Just wondering how many of you that gm wanted to reply to actually got help not out of pocket. Do they not see these post numerous problems people are having with these vehicles it is not coincidental gm recall for these and stand behind your products integrity is everything actions speak louder than words
#419 of 487 Got mine fixed thanks to this site
Aug 09, 2012 (8:51 pm)
After taking my 2008 Outlook in twice due to the front sunroof leaking, I got really worried when the BACK moonroof started leaking. After reading many posts on this site I called GM customer service first and got a case number. I then called my service place (GM/Chevy, former Saturn), told them my problem (and that I had contacted GM as I felt this was a faulty vehicle issue) and asked for an appointment to verify where the problem was coming from, and an estimate so I could tell GM. Now I really like our service guys but this was the best service I've had yet. By the time they called me with the estimate, they had already contacted GM, gotten it 100% covered, and were ready to get started. The back moonroof had to be removed, holes in the roof filled (design flaw-if this doesn't get fixed it will keep leaking), then moonroof replaced. This was also causing engine probs due to water dripping on the fuse block. Fixed too. I live in the Pacific Northwest so they have likely had more experience w/ these issues due to the rain, and since it's been fixed we haven't had any monster storms. I'm hoping the next rainy season doesn't cause me any problems since I really love my Saturn. But it's very disappointing to read of all the frustrations and difficulties for others. Hoping this info is helpful and best of luck.