Last post on Feb 28, 2010 at 8:19 AM
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Toyota Prius, Volkswagen Golf, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Hatchback, Sedan
#637 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [elias]
Feb 14, 2010 (7:19 am)
Well let's start with some facts and data along with with sources:
"- legroom, you don't show there's more legroom than TDI"
The specific 'legroom' is rear seat legroom, which you accidently left off:
"Legroom, rear (in.) 35.4" - Edmunds Insight review of 2009 Jetta TDI
"Rear Leg Room: 36 in." - Edmunds review Prius 2010
"- low emissions, you don't show that it's lower than TDI"
Actually the California Air Resources Board did in their executive report of both the Jetta TDI and 2010 Prius:
A-014-0657 - Toyota 2010 Prius executive order
A-007-0271 - Volkswagen Jetta, Jetta Sportwagen diesel, Golf executive order
"- quiet operation, you don't show that it's quieter than TDI"
Well there is this Volkwaggen commercial:
The title is "Meet the Volkswagens - Jetta TDI Meets Prius". Weird that VW advertises the noise of a Jetta TDI but of course they could be lying.
"- solar panels in roof to power the AC? Prius does not have such a thing. "
Actually it has two features:
1) solar power, cabin air exhaust - an option, it vents the cabin heat on sunny summer days.
2) remote A/C operation - an option, pressing a remote keyfob turns on the air conditioner to reduce cabin heat as we walk to the car.
Thank you for posting but the facts and data are different.
#638 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [bwilson4web]
Feb 14, 2010 (7:44 am)
Even with all your +++ for the Prius it is still a noisy, numb uncomfortable vehicle to drive. Being fun at a smelly gas pump does not count for much in my book. And yes gas is stinkier than diesel. And more carcinogenic. That is why they have the sealed pump handles for gas and not for diesel.
I am not sure I would like the Golf TDI. I know from experience I would not have a Prius. Did I mention one of the worst cars on the road for blind spots. Not good in a commuter car with people trying to sneak around the Prius driver that is holding up traffic, hypermiling.
#639 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [gagrice]
Feb 14, 2010 (8:59 am)
Ahem, "it is still a noisy" doesn't match the Volkswagen commercial "Meet the Volkswagens - Jetta TDI Meets Prius." As VW claimed, Jetta TDIs are noisy compared to the Prius.
It really comes down to a question of requirements. The TDI comes up short by metrics important to our buying budget:
I understand "fun car." However, my concept of a fun car is fully electric and spelled TESLA!
#640 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [gagrice]
Feb 14, 2010 (10:34 am)
How much experience do you have behind the wheel of a 2010 Prius? Or is your opinion of the 2010 Prius based on second-hand info or experience with earlier designs?
I got to check out the 2010 Prius when I stopped by my local dealer yesterday to see how my buddy, the Master Sales Rep there, was doing. He's an engineer by training and experience so I always enjoy talking with him, as he knows how cars work including hybrids. I confirmed the rear seat of the 2010 Prius is indeed very comfortable for adults, at least adults of my height (5'10"), with gobs of legroom--much moreso than my departed 2007 Rabbit. (Maybe VW increased rear leg room a lot in the 2010 Golf?) I didn't go for a drive because I came in right before closing and all the base models, which is what I would get were I to buy a Prius, were in a satellite lot.
Maybe we could stick with discussion of the CARS, and not on the driving habits of individuals? I am sure there are rude drivers to be found no matter what model of car they happen to drive, and hypermiling behavior is not unique to Prius drivers.
As for carcinogenic effects of fuel, that is off-topic also, but at least get your facts straight, e.g.
#641 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [backy]
Feb 14, 2010 (2:04 pm)
My experience was with a 2009 Prius as a passenger. He has stock tires and you feel and hear every crack and crevice in the sub standard California streets. The engine noise comes about when it kicks in. I was the one that recommended the Prius. So I did not make any negative comments. He seems to like it and that is all that counts. I was always happy to get back in my Lexus or Sequoia. End of story.
Your two articles do not compare Unleaded gas to diesel. They make vague evaluations with little substantiating evidence. Fact is Unleaded is much more dangerous than diesel.
Extremely Flammable liquid and vapor
Harmful if swallowed
May cause eye and respiratory irritation
Cancer Hazard – Contains material which can
The Prius is stuck with Unleaded Regular. Many people run 100% biodiesel in their VW TDI vehicles. Making them more environmentally safe. Unleaded stinks and burns my eyes. I am thankful CA has forced gas stations to put safety nozzles on gas pumps. Nasty stuff.
#642 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [gagrice]
Feb 14, 2010 (2:34 pm)
So you have no experience at all with the redesigned 2010 Prius? Have you even sat in one? Maybe check it out at your local auto show.
Did you read the OSHA information I posted, which classifies diesel fuel as a carcinogen? That report did not look like a "vague evaluation" to me. It looked pretty specific. There were many other references I did not post--I could if you insist, or you could easily look them up yourself and we can move on talking about the cars.
FWIW, diesel fumes stink and burn my eyes.
Many people run 100% biodiesel in their VW TDI vehicles.
How many (especially for the 2010 TDI) run on 100% biodiesel, and where is the data from? I have read that VW states that only up to B5 (5% biodiesel) should be used in the 2010 TDI.
#643 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [backy]
Feb 14, 2010 (3:58 pm)
Yes I sat in a 2010 Prius. Same cheap seats. Not at all comfortable.
The EPA report concludes that uncertainties remain about long-term health effects of exposure to diesel exhausts. It said, however, that studies involving both tests on animals and occupational exposure suggest strong evidence of a cancer risk to humans.
We know gas fumes are carcinogenic. Not just suspected as in Marine Diesel.
From OSHA link:
International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) carcinogenic classification: Group 2B, Possibly carcinogenic to humans (Marine diesel fuel) or Group 3, Not classifiable as to carcinogenicity to humans [Distillate (light) diesel fuels].
That would be number one and two diesel used on the highways.
There is entirely too much misinformation spread concerning the health risks of diesel. You don't like the smell of diesel. I don't like the smell of unleaded gas. The truth is you will die sooner from smelling gasoline than diesel.
Which has nothing to do with why I like diesel engines over a bunch of overly complex hybrids. Drivability is the reason. If you have not tried it you cannot possibly understand. You keep questioning my experience with the Prius. When was the last time you drove a VW TDI. Especially with the new DSG transmission.
#644 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [gagrice]
Feb 14, 2010 (4:22 pm)
I have to question whether you actually sat in a 2010 Prius. The seats have been redesigned. They are not the same as 2004-9, especially in trims with the power lumbar support. For 2010 there's also a driver's height adjustment, which for me at least makes a huge difference in driving position.
I have not driven a TDI. But I have also not said it's an awful car, without driving it first. I never complained about the ride and handling for example, as I don't have direct experience in those areas. In fact, I think it looks on paper like a very good car. Just not one that meets my needs and driving patterns, based on what I know about it. I don't know why it is that when discussing two cars, one must be hated in order for the other to be liked.
As for diesel's impact on health... from what I see in the OSHA report, I would not want to be anywhere close to it. It's no elixir of health, that is for sure.
Potential symptoms: Irritation of eyes, skin, respiratory tract; dizziness, headache, nausea; chemical pneumonitis (from aspiration of liquid); dry, red skin; irritant contact dermatitis; eye redness, pain.
Health Effects: Irritation-Eyes---Mild (HE-16); Kidney damage (HE3), Potential lung damage (HE-10); Suspected carcinogen (Marine diesel fuel) (HE2)
Affected organs: Eyes, skin, kidneys
1. OSHA does not have a PEL for diesel fuel, but it is designated as an OSHA Select Carcinogen.
2. Explosive vapor/air mixtures of diesel fuel no. 2 may be formed at temperatures above 52°C.
3. Some cases of kidney damage from exposure to diesel fuel have been reported.
#645 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [backy]
Feb 14, 2010 (4:53 pm)
So you have not driven any VW TDI and I have not ridden in or driven a 2010 Prius. I cannot even test drive a 2010 Prius because they are grounded due to faulty brakes. You don't like diesel which is fine with me. I don't like gas engines for several reasons. When associated with an overly complex hybrid system they are even less appealing to me. Do I hate them. No I have recommended them to friends that have bought them.
I am not sure why we are having this debate if you are not willing to test drive a VW TDI. And there is no possible way that Toyota has improved the Prius enough in 2010 to interest me. So that leaves us at an impasse. I got a feeling you will not buy a Prius and I will probably not buy a Golf TDI. For one thing it is not really what I want in a new vehicle.
#646 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [gagrice]
Feb 14, 2010 (6:29 pm)
There's a fix for the 2010 Prius brake software, so don't let that stop you from a test drive.
I am not going to test drive a car that I have little chance of buying. I don't have the time, and I don't want to waste time of the VW salesperson. If my local dealer ever offered an open house to test drive the new Golf, I might take advantage of that. Sometimes dealers do that, e.g. when the Fit and 2008 Accord came out, my local Honda dealer had open houses, and my local Hyundai dealer is having an open house for the 2011 Sonata. Great ways to check out a car even if you're not serious about buying one in the foreseeable future.
As for my buying/leasing a Prius, I think there is actually a decent chance of that happening in the next 2-3 years, or maybe sooner. My local dealer is offering a really good lease with no money down on the Prius now. (That's why I stopped in to talk to my sales rep buddy the other day.) I have a feeling that kind of deal will be around awhile as Toyota rebuilds its reputation. The lease payment plus gas savings would be about the same money per month as my Sonata... and I could sell that and pocket some cash. If that doesn't work, I will be looking at the Prius when the warranty runs out on the Sonata. But who knows what else will be out there in 2-3 years? The Prius will be pretty much the same then (as will the TDI), but some new, interesting models are due out in that timeframe.
Kind of funny, though, that you are so passionate about two cars that you have no intention of owning.