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Toyota Prius, Volkswagen Golf, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Hatchback, Sedan
#620 of 791 Re: Golf TDI #1 March 2010 Consumer Reports [backy]
Feb 11, 2010 (11:35 am)
You are talking about a point-in-time view
Only recently have Toyota's problems become a media issue, however, this point-in-time view is the result of 10 to 15 years of Toyota problems.
This decline in Toyota quality has been ongoing since at least 2000, if not longer.
Toyota knew about the problems and would not take action.
Toyota problems are systemic, there is no reasonable expectation that Prius will be excluded.
When Toyota had a sludge problem they refused to take action until public outcry became overwhelming.
When Toyota had a rust problem with Toyota Tacoma frames so bad the trucks were breaking in half, for years Toyota said the rust was normal until NHTSA investigated as a safety issue and finally Toyota extended the warranty. They refused to recall the trucks. This is for 1995 to 2000 Tacoma's, though there is evidence of problems with 2000 and later Tacoma trucks.
This is not the first recall for a Prius.
Your "point-in-time" view about Toyota is applicable, and to VW too yet you refuse give up the past and realize that the current reality of reliability and quality is much changed from 10 years and even 5 years ago.
VW reliability was worse than average with the MkIII Golf, and with the early MKIV Golf. By the end of the MKIV Golf and the start of MKV, VW had corrected it's component reliability problems.
VW's are reliable. VW is continuing to exert pressure on dealers to modernize their facilities and to improve their customer service in the area of maintenance and repair. VW's dealer network offered an inconsistent experience from dealer to dealer and far too many dealers were horrible.
While the dealer network is still a work in process, VW is continuing it's efforts to improve dealership quality. I would rank them at average at this point-in-time for customer service and above average for facility quality.
Golf TDI and Prius are both unique among the overall automotive market and both are recognized as being excellent if not the best in their classes.
When you buy a TDI or you buy a Prius, you still have to deal with VW and Toyota whether you love them or hate them.
I'm just glad I don't have to try to schedule service for a Toyota, or sell a Toyota at this point-in-time,
#621 of 791 Re: Golf TDI #1 March 2010 Consumer Reports [moparbad]
Feb 11, 2010 (12:49 pm)
Toyota problems are systemic, there is no reasonable expectation that Prius will be excluded.
There is a lot of reason to expect overall strong reliability for the Prius. See for example the reliability scores for the Prius in CR. That is a strong historical record. OTOH, I don't know how you can look at the current software problem and extrapolate that the car will be unreliable in general.
VWs are reliable.
Let's look at CR's take on that, since you respect their opinion. Following is from the April 2009 Auto Issue:
Eos: Below Average
New Beetle: Below Average
Passat: Below Average
Rabbit: Above Average
Routan: New (although the record for the vans made on the same assembly line as the Routan is Much Worse than Average)
Touareg: Much Worse than Average
If this is "much changed" from 10 years or even 5 years ago... in which direction did it change?? Only one car, the Rabbit, is Above Average. And considering the Rabbit/Golf are the hatchback versions of the Jetta, basically one vehicle for VW is Average or above. That is good for the Golf/Jetta, but not very good for VW overall.
In contrast, prior to the UA issue CR ranked all Toyota models at least Above Average with the following exceptions:
Camry I4 and V6: Average (Hybrid was well above average)
Land Cruiser: Insufficient data
Eight models, including the Prius and Camry Hybrid, were ranked well above average in reliability.
So does Toyota have problems now? Sure. But please don't try to re-write history or even current events and try to make a case that VW is suddenly a provider of reliable vehicles in general, or that the Prius is suddenly an unreliable car because of the software issue.
#622 of 791 Re: Golf TDI #1 March 2010 Consumer Reports [backy]
Feb 11, 2010 (3:20 pm)
Funny how when VW recalls 1.3 million vehicles, as it did not long ago in two separate actions involving the Golf/Rabbit/Jetta, no one blinked an eye.
Maybe that is because people are not looking for just a car with great reliability. They are looking at a car with high quality components. Great handling, safety and braking plus super fun to drive. With the Golf TDI you get all that and 50 MPG. Now take the Prius. The only positives it had going for it was high mileage and reliability. Take away the reliability and it does not leave much reason to own one. Count on resale to go in the toilet.
#623 of 791 Re: Golf TDI #1 March 2010 Consumer Reports [gagrice]
Feb 11, 2010 (4:02 pm)
OK, then, I guess we can drop this whole discussion on reliability, since it's not a big issue.
And the Prius does have other plusses besides fuel economy and reliability, e.g.:
* Lots of legroom in back for adults--midsized interior room with compact exterior
* Low emissions
* Quiet operation (especially in electric-only mode)
* Unique styling (a plus for some)
* Some unique features in this class, e.g. solar panels in roof to power a/c
* Lots of cargo room
BTW... you do not get 50 mpg from the Golf TDI, unless you run it on the highway no-stop all the time. In the real world, ala R&T's tests, it's closer to 40 mpg. But the Prius seems fully capable of topping 50 mpg average, even 55, in real-world driving.
Resale going in the toilet? Yes, if gas goes below $1 a gallon. Don't think that will happen.
#624 of 791 rehashing reliability is old-hat
Feb 12, 2010 (8:27 am)
yes, backy, we can drop the reliability discussion - there is no issue - nothing to debate as far as I can see.
(not counting toyota's recent fiasco, euro cars are not as reliable as GMs or Toyotas. everybody knows this. IMHO, it's boring & old-news.)
you like the Prius better! Cool. Have fun with one!
FYI, The best way to get TDI 50mpg is with "suburban" driving, or driving a constant 60 mph on highway.
Regarding your reported prius advantages, looks like a low batting-average for those.
- legroom, you don't show there's more legroom than TDI
- low emissions, you don't show that it's lower than TDI
- quiet operation, you don't show that it's quieter than TDI
- solar panels in roof to power the AC? Prius does not have such a thing.
probably you mean solar panels to power a little fan.
ok, if that's an advantage for you , maybe you are batting 0.200 ,
do you consider the pac-man-fruit zipping across the Prius dashboard
as an advantage too? prius dashboard pac-men are fun entertainment, but that's not a feature
I want in my cars dashboard, personally.
As for Prius resale values, don't sweat those - seems like you like your prius so much you obviously won't be selling/trading it! News reports indicate they've only dropped a few percent lower than they would have if Toyota hadn't "temporarily forgotten" the basics of customer-service and automotive engineering.
#625 of 791 Re: rehashing reliability is old-hat [elias]
Feb 12, 2010 (8:40 am)
Re FE, please see my post above re R&T's tests of the Prius and Golf TDI. Their tests found that the highest FE for the TDI was on the freeway--not suburban driving. In fact there was a big difference between suburban and freeway driving. The only scenario in which they could break 50 mpg on the TDI was cruising on the freeway, AC off (in SoCal), 70 mph (55 mph average speed). However, they achieved over 50 mpg with the Prius in every scenario except "canyon carving", in which it got only 40.8 mpg (TDI got 30.9).
Re legroom, I'll let you look up the specs for yourself since you dispute my assertion. Better yet, just go do a test-sit in both cars and tell us which has more legroom. If you can't do that, I'll do it next month when I go to my local auto show and tell you what I find out. Unless the TDI has a lot more rear legroom than the prior generation, I know how that will turn out.
Re emissions, I'll let you look up those figures also.
Re quieter... you have to be joking. Even VW makes a big deal out of the wonderful noise that the TDI makes compared to a hybrid. If you like noise, that is great. Some folks prefer quieter driving.
Re solar powered moonroof... does the Golf TDI offer that?
Also, were you aware in some states that hybrids get special permission to use HOV lanes and special parking spaces? I could see that being a big advantage for people who live in those states. I am not aware those benes extend to diesels. Maybe you can tell us if that is the case.
#626 of 791 Re: Golf TDI #1 March 2010 Consumer Reports [backy]
Feb 12, 2010 (8:42 am)
To rely on R&T or any other car magazine like them for fuel economy figures is dumb. R&T, Car and Driver, and Motor Trend drive all of the vehicles they test as if they were stolen. They make no attempt at driving any of their test subjects to get maximum fuel economy.
In real world driving, a TDI can get 50+ MPG on the road. I owned an Isuzu I-Mark diesel in the early 80's and when driven judiciously, I was able to get 53-54 MPG on the road and in the low 40's around town.
I own a 2005 Jeep Liberty CRD and on the highway I get 30 - 31 MPG, again when driven judiciously.
As to emissions, the Prius and other hybrids from Japan will be using a one way fuel, gasolene. My diesel can use dino diesel or biodiesel without any deleterious effects on performance or fuel economy.
#627 of 791 Re: Golf TDI #1 March 2010 Consumer Reports [winter2]
Feb 12, 2010 (8:54 am)
Yes, R&T admitted they did not baby the cars. But they also said they made every effort to treat all the cars the same way. So they didn't baby the Prius and race the TDI, for example. Apples-to-apples, real-world test. I thought it was pretty useful as a comparison. It's not something you or I get a chance to do with cars--compare them in all kinds of driving, in exactly the same conditions.
What FE have you achieved with the TDI in real-world driving?
Since biodiesel has the bad habit of gelling in cold weather, I'm not going to depend on it here in Minnesnowta, Land of 10,000 Frozen Lakes.
#628 of 791 Re: Golf TDI #1 March 2010 Consumer Reports [backy]
Feb 12, 2010 (9:14 am)
I've posted before. Fellow worker runs B20 from Co-op with no problems in South Dakota.
The 1/2 inch of extra rear legroom in the Prius is negated by the inch less headroom front and back.
Noise, you got to be kidding the road noise on the Prius around town is BAD. I have not ridden in the new one on the highway. In stealth mode on a very smooth parking lot the Prius is very quiet. Not a big part of my driving need.
I think seat comfort speaks for itself. That is one of the biggest complaints on the Prius. I will give the Prius high marks for usable space with the rear seats folded. I have not looked at the 4 door Golf in that configuration.
I can tell you if and when I ever get to test drive the Golf TDI, if it rides and handles anything like the Prius it will be off my list of errand vehicles.
As a highway car the Golf TDI will go about an extra 130 miles on a tank of fuel. That is a big plus for me. Though I am now leaning more toward the GREEN CAR OF THE YEAR. The new Audi A3 TDI.
#629 of 791 Re: Golf TDI #1 March 2010 Consumer Reports [backy]
Feb 12, 2010 (9:28 am)
I have driven an older TDI (2003- Jetta Wagon) with manual trans and have gotten 48 to 52 MPG on the road.
As to biodiesel gelling, only if it is not treated for cold weather. Do not forget that cold like you speak of takes it's toll on batteries too.