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Toyota Prius, Volkswagen Golf, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Hatchback, Sedan
#56 of 791 Re: Anecdotal Experience [moparbad]
Aug 13, 2009 (5:41 pm)
I for one am looking forward to the roll out of the GTD either the 2010/2011. Initial indications are $18,000. Till that time the only thing that is close and might be off topic is the 2009 Jetta TDI. While we get 39-45 mpg, that has been in break in mode .
In some respects the engines (Prius/TDI) are not in the ball park. As such, the reality is more like comparing mpg. That being true a more apples to apples comparison is a Camry/Accord V6 # ft 254 19/29/22 against the 2009 Jetta TDI 2.0, # ft of torque 236 29/40/ 37.
When I got the 2003 Jetta TDI, I actually looked at both the 2003 Prius and 2004 Civic hybrid. Fuel mileage was better 35/44/42 03 TDI, although my ranges have been 48-52 vs 03 Prius of 42/41/41. I got neither hybrid as they would NOT deal at all. In fact in terms of price the real competition is the Toyota Corolla/Honda Civic.
Looking forward the anomalies continue to exist in the the 2010/2010 Golf TDI will be the sports version (GTI) vs the 2010 Prius which is not even in the same league as the Camry V6.
I am glad to see however that Prius after many years of good advertising about 50 mpg is actually getting 50 mpg. Seems there were a fair number of very dissatisfied Prius owners. But with the new "cooked" EPA numbers which favor the Prius and improvements to the current model Prius there is less rancor within the Prius ranks.
Incidently the 2009 (less than 9k) , 2003 (121k) Jetta TDI's have been literally flawless as has been the 2004 (90k) Honda Civic, we got in lieu of either the Prius, Civic hybrid. However I am guessing that will not go unvilified.
#57 of 791 The Saga Continues
Aug 16, 2009 (2:33 pm)
Well... I for one do not have a "chip" on my shoulder because of the issues if had with VWs and Audis. It is a shame the such a nicely made vehicle (their interiors are among the best in the business) can have so many issues. I certainly would consider one down the road when I have seen that their reliability has improved. For now, I'll keep away.
On a lighter note, I just passed the 70,000 mile mark on my 2004 Prius and I just averaged 51.3 on the most recent tankful of gas. I can't think too far ahead but it looks as though a new Prius (2015 model) may be in my driveway
Dewey.. so sorry to hear that you've had problems with your Bimmer. I know they can be quite expensive to repair. That is why you can get a 3 yr old 7 series for less than half of what it was priced when new. My friend recently sold his six year old 3 series because of the thousands in maintenance he was spending on a low mileage out of warranty vehicle. He ended up buying a Camry.
I still love the fact that I can glide in traffic without my engine idling. These days I seem to be doing lots of city driving and the TDI would never get the type of mileage I get in the city. Oh.. anyone hear that there is only a 13 day supply of the new 2010 Prius? They can't keep 'em on the ground... talk about selling like hotcakes!!! Whew!!
#58 of 791 Re: The Saga Continues [jpeters1970]
Aug 16, 2009 (4:48 pm)
anyone hear that there is only a 13 day supply of the new 2010 Prius? They can't keep 'em on the ground... talk about selling like hotcakes!!! Whew!!
Seems like a lot to me with the C4C program emptying the Ford lots of Escapes, Focus and Fusions. There are a lot more 2010 Prius available in San Diego than VW TDIs. The TDIs pretty much sell off of the truck. Can't wait to test drive the Golf TDI. If there is any clunker cash left I may trade in my Ranger on one. Only car I would consider at this time. Don't need it, just be handy for running errands. Diesel still cheaper here than RUG. RUG $2.99 D2 $2.89.
#59 of 791 Re: The Saga Continues [gagrice]
Aug 17, 2009 (12:27 am)
Get back to me in the winter when diesel will be going up again. Last year the price difference was quite large (almost 80cents more per gallon). OUCH!!! There are so few TDIs that it is no surprise that they're being snatched up quickly. They are a very rare thing to see on this side of the country (right coast). I wonder if that's because they're on the lifts in the repair department
RE: Running errands in a brand new diesel? Makes no sense. Keep the Ranger or buy a Ford Focus. Cheaper in the long run.
#60 of 791 Re: The Saga Continues [jpeters1970]
Aug 17, 2009 (6:11 am)
There is no car with a 4 cylinder gas engine I would consider. I hate driving up our long Interstate grade with the engine screaming to keep up with the 75 MPH traffic. I love taking drives in the country on back winding roads. That is where diesel engines really shine. That low end torque makes driving a pleasure. You have to experience it to understand. The only reason I am considering getting rid of the Ranger is the V6 is so under powered. I would have traded it on a new V6 Ranger if the CARS allowed it.
The reliability failures of the VW does not ring true to me. I owned a VW Passat Wagon TDI for over a year and the only warranty work was a broken gas cover. That was done by a gas station attendant in Oregon the day I bought it. And the San Diego VW dealer replaced it under warranty. In 13 months the only other trips to the dealer was for oil change. That was less on the TDI than for my Toyota. I really liked driving that Passat. If it had a couple more inches of ground clearance I would have kept it. Of course it helped that I made $3000 over what I paid the year before selling it. I could have sold a dozen of them at that price.
I am glad you like your Prius. It is probably ok for in town driving. Just not what I would enjoy. And the Focus even less. If you ever get a chance to drive a Golf TDI out in the country on a winding road, you will understand what I am saying. Cars should be more than just an appliance. Sadly that is about all I see on the dealers lots anymore.
#61 of 791 Re: The Saga Continues [jpeters1970]
Aug 17, 2009 (4:37 pm)
I wonder if that's because they're on the lifts in the repair department
First service is at 10,000 miles and maintenance is free for 3/36.
TDI vs. Prius
quote- While the hybrid won the fuel efficiency stakes, the diesel was the drivers' favorite for its abundant torque and sportier handling. The Prius has never been remotely sporty, whereas the Jetta is known as a sort of junior BMW 3-Series.
The Jetta zipped up twisty hills that the Prius's Hybrid Synergy Drive struggled with, while drivers behind the Prius seethed as its pilot struggled to keep her car out of "Power Mode," which sucks more fuel.
So there you have it: Sometimes higher fuel economy comes at the expense of driving quality-end quote
I prefer a "drivers favorite" TDI and will let someone else drive the "never been remotely sporty" Prius.
Golf TDI is evern more fun to drive than the Jetta. Very excited for it to arrive.
#62 of 791 Re: The Saga Continues [moparbad]
Aug 17, 2009 (7:46 pm)
Handling and braking trump mileage any day of the week for me. Getting high mileage and great handling is a win win for the Golf TDI.
We sample the Golf VI diesel before it comes to America.
BY ERIK JOHNSON
You bet we love diesels. Modern diesels are clean, have gobs of ground-pounding torque, and get fuel mileage that shames pretty much any comparably sized gas-fired engine. So when we were given the opportunity to get behind the wheel of a Golf VI TDI in Italy before it goes on sale in America, we jumped at the chance. (Volkswagen loves diesels, too. The lower price of the fuel this year combined with the public’s desire to get more bang for its fuel buck has U.S. VW oil-burner sales soaring. Last month, diesel fueled some 26 percent of all Volkswagens sold, including 81 percent of Jetta SportWagen sales.)
The Golf is offered with several diesel engines in Europe—the top spec is the hot, GTI-inspired GTD—but the U.S. will get just one: a 140-hp, 2.0-liter turbo four-banger putting out 236 lb-ft of torque.
The steering was a tad light, but it was fantastically accurate. The firm suspension could get a bit harsh over broken pavement, but it also kept the car flat in corners and, combined with the steering, made quick work of the twisted Umbrian roads that connect Florence and Rome. Traversing the autostrada at triple digits was similarly drama-free.
Since Honda dumped the S2000, I cannot think of a Japanese car that is fun to drive. Ok maybe a few. None with Toyota or Honda on the nameplate.
#63 of 791 Re: The Saga Continues [gagrice]
Aug 18, 2009 (12:46 am)
Nice torque!!! Great for zipping around traffic. How is the NVH? That would annoy me if it was too much at idle (city driving low RPM). Does it turn off at lights? Nah.. didn't think so. I bet if it did it would rival the Prius in city mileage numbers. So what are the forecasted sales numbers? A few thousand a month for all 50 states? VW doesn't seem to be advertising it much except for the dumb lame commercial about 2 or 3 months ago. Remember that one with the guy who had the Prius? It made me think of the dumb I'm a PC commercial. Final thought... get the Fusion hybrid. You'll get a nice tax credit and you'll be buying American with Toyota technology
#64 of 791 Re: The Saga Continues [jpeters1970]
Aug 18, 2009 (6:38 am)
First off I do not zip around in traffic if I can avoid it. My driving would be less than 20% city driving. I live 32 highway miles from downtown San Diego. I had a 2005 GMC hybrid with auto stop. Made no difference in mileage. It was a real pain in some driving situations like taking off on a hill after stopping. Even with light acceleration you would get wheel spin, which was dangerous on wet pavement. IMO, auto-stop without full electric drive type hybrids is not a good system. Why not a Fusion Hybrid? I have a full size LS400 that is still perfectly fine for hauling people to dinner etc. It is now 20 years old and in great condition. No need for another large vehicle. My major complaint with hybrids is the added complexity that may be a real pain 10-15 years down the road.
I would be completely happy with my Ranger if it had the power to pull my small 3500LB utility trailer home from town. I have my eye on a 1995 Ford F250 Powerstroke in pristine condition. So getting $4500 in trade for the Ranger would be good. I would like a decent SUV with diesel so I could sell my Sequoia gas guzzler. The only ones currently available have that awful urea injection system to satisfy the wonks at CARB. So trading for the Golf TDI would be my car for all the day to day running around. The LS400 for evenings out with friends. I am stuck with the Sequoia for vacations till a better solution comes along.
Lastly CA gas is horrible for mileage. I lose at least 10% or more with the ethanol tainted crap they sell us. CA by contrast has some of the best diesel on the market. And over a years period it is cheaper than RUG.
Do I need a new Golf TDI? Not really. It would just be fun to run around in and save a bit of money on fuel. Overall it would cost more than I currently spend for insurance and maintenance on 3 vehicles.
#65 of 791 Re: The Saga Continues [gagrice]
Aug 18, 2009 (8:07 am)
..."Lastly CA gas is horrible for mileage. I lose at least 10% or more with the ethanol tainted crap they sell us. CA by contrast has some of the best diesel on the market. And over a years period it is cheaper than RUG"...
Yes your quote has very little traction (reality base) with those that do/can not experience the two side by side, specifically D2. To be fair it pre supposes the RUG to PUG gasser users would approach the diesel side fairly, but indeed by some of the anti diesel comments they either can't, don't, won't approach it fairly, or truly understand and are anti diesel anyway.
So for the periods PRE Oct 2006, D2 users were literally FORCED to use LSD (by law had to be 500 ppm) and 40 cetane for vehicles designed for ULSD (by law had to be 15 ppm and are normally less 5 ppm) and 49/51 cetane.
But as you say, CA D2 LSD was actually BETTER 140 ppm. So while my 03 Jetta TDI survived intact running a whole less than optimal fuel, and for most of its mileage life it was not (run on optimal fuel) because of the dictates of the EPA and CARB; needless to say the current diesels seem to run very well on ULSD. One spin off is while Prius still run 5,000 mile OCI's running 25,000 to 30,000 miles on ULSD D2 is almost a no brainer. (D2 actually runs much cleaner internally, in the example app up to 6 x cleaner)
So as it turns out, the D2 fuel USLD less than 15 ppm with more normal 5 ppm (off line mitigation is NOT ALLOWED) is actually cleaner than the fuel run by Prius' 90 ppm required, and can be off line FEE balanced to 30 ppm if it does not actually measure out to 30 ppm. ) So as a result, a Prius can be running fuel that in reality is up to 18 x dirtier than D2.