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Toyota Prius, Volkswagen Golf, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Hatchback, Sedan
#542 of 791 Re: November poll - voting results are in [bwilson4web]
Dec 12, 2009 (7:33 am)
I know you like the Prius and that is good. But Toyota Hybrids have peaked in sales and are headed down hill WORLD WIDE. From 429,700 in 2008 to 291,700 in 2009. While the 2010 Golf TDI was named both "green car of the year" and "World Car of the Year".
The Golf has averaged 714,000 sales per year for its 35 years of existence. The Prius has averaged 109,000 cars per year for its life time average sales. I think you know what that meant for Toyota. For every Prius sold VW sold 6.5 Golfs. People voted with their wallets and the VW Golf is the hands down winner. And as the Golf has gained in popularity the Prius has gone down hill about 30% decrease this year alone. The Prius is a two market car while the Golf is a "WORLD" car. VW does not need a loss leader like the Prius to meet the CAFE standards in the USA. So why should VW flood the market and lose money?
#543 of 791 Re: November poll - voting results are in [bwilson4web]
Dec 12, 2009 (7:40 am)
And another thing. The Prius NAV is still at the bottom of the pile for 2010. Their $500 DVD updates are a total rip-off. ToyLex charges more for less on their NAV systems. VW Golf you can get the updates from several sources. Not just the rip-off dealers. You like being jacked around by Toyota. That is your privilege. They do well in the USA because we are not as demanding of quality as the rest of the World.
#544 of 791 Re: November poll - voting results are in [gagrice]
Dec 12, 2009 (10:30 am)
With rare exception, buyers spending $20-30,000 choose based upon price-performance and availability. The 2010 Prius gets better mileage than any of the TDI vehicles including highway. It is a midsize sedan and TDIs come in compact and one rare wagon. So I'm not terribly worried about buyer votes. One of the least persuasive arguments is what others are buying.
Discussions about hybrid vs diesel sales has most merit if one is looking at 401k performance or stock investments:
". . . Toyota Hybrids have peaked in sales and are headed down hill . . ."
In about a month we'll have the numbers for December and the year. I'm patient and looking forward to the results. During the first quarter of 2009, the Japanese press reported Toyota put on extra shifts at the Prius plants and brought employees in from other car plants to build Prius. Then GreenCarCongress reported hybrid sales:
Green Car Congress: Reported US Sales of Hybrids Up 21% in November; New Vehicle Market Share of 2.7%
". . .
Toyota. Toyota posted 14,473 hybrids in November 2009, up 16.3% from November 2008. Total light-duty vehicle sales were up 2.6% to 133,700 units.
. . .
Ford. Ford came in a strong second in the monthly hybrid tally, with 2,361 units sold, up 73.5% from the year prior.
. . .
Honda. Honda posted a total of 1,646 hybrids in November, up 57.8%. Total sales were down 3% to 74,003 units.
. . .
GM. GM reported a total of 1,020 hybrid sales, down 25.5% from November 2008.
. . .
Nissan. Nissan sold 503 Altima Hybrids in November, up 42.5% from the year before, representing 3.2% of Altima sales.
. . ."
Percentages can sometimes be misleading. Toyota's 16.3% increase in hybrid sales would be ~2,359 units ... about the same as Ford's total hybrid sales. All TDI sales in November were 3,667 compared to 14,473 for all Toyota hybrids.
I think 2010 will be an interesting Prius year. The Bush recession is ending and gas prices are creeping up again. We also know hybrid production is battery limited but a new plant is supposed to be coming online. But 2015 will be especially good when the NiMH patent expires and Toyota can design and build NiMH batteries optimized for vehicle propulsion.
#545 of 791 Re: November poll - voting results are in [gagrice]
Dec 12, 2009 (11:20 am)
Sorry for the late post but the "November 2009 dashboard" report showed up:
-28.7% vs. last month
11.1% vs. Nov 2008
-15.3% vs. CYTD 2008
-18.3% vs. last month
21.0% vs. Nov 2008
-10.6% vs. CYTD 2008
-10.8% vs. last month
-0.1% vs. Nov 2008
-24.0% vs. CYTD 2008"
It looks like ". . . the Prius has gone down hill about 30% decrease this year . . ." might be more accurate for all vehicle sales and not the Prius and hybrids. But as I pointed out earlier, what other people buy has little impact on someone spending over $20,000 on a new car.
#546 of 791 Why the Prius attracts diesel advocates
Dec 12, 2009 (12:08 pm)
While researching another topic, I stumbled across Acxiom marketing report. Key findings are:
* Technology: Hybrid technology is helping “mainstream nameplates” make inroads into a previously untapped market: tech-savvy, luxury consumers (presenting an opportunity to position mainstream nameplates in a very different buying market);
* Conquesting: Hybrid vehicles drive conquesting or brand switching as much as 10 percentage points higher than their non-hybrid counterparts;
* Room at the Top: “Upper Rung” consumer groups are fueling hybrid buying trends – capturing just 5 percent of these high propensity hybrid consumers would serve to double 2007 U.S. hybrid sales;
* Geographic Differences: Consumers with a high propensity toward hybrids demonstrate a striking difference in geographic location from their non-hybrid counterparts."
Prius owners are taking bites out of other vehicle technologies. The "Conquesting" means they switch from other technologies and brands to hybrid and stay. So we are a direct threat to diesel market share.
In bad economic times, the Prius owners are relatively affluent. They qualify for car loans or just out right buy the car. We are the perfect prospect for any dealer but we are bright enough to see through inaccurate claims.
What is puzzling is given how easily diesel advocate claims run smack dab into the facts and data, they continue to trot them out. We're not the type of customer likely to be persuaded by such claims. So it might be a better use of diesel advocate time to visit other car forums such as compact gas cars:
These are cars in the same size and no doubt those owners are desperate for good diesel news so easily dismissed by Prius owners. But diesel advocacy in the family sedan sized, Prius hybrid market, that dog don't hunt.
#547 of 791 Re: November poll - voting results are in [gagrice]
Dec 12, 2009 (3:53 pm)
If you go and take a Golf TDI out for a good drive away from the stop and go city, and still think the Prius is superior, let us know. I have ridden enough in a friends 09 Prius to never even consider them. Rough riding and noisy on our sub standard San Diego surface streets
IOW a one trick pony. Yes as long as you keep the TDI's on the highway they are somewhat near the Prius in terms of fuel economy. If you go by Edmunds 3-segment comparo to LV and back the TDI fell short in every segment. Most people can't park their vehicles on highway entrance ramps for use only there. It's illegal.
A good vehicle and a good option but limited in scope. The TDI's will always suffer by comparison when used off the highways. The Sportwagon with the same size as the Prius is worse yet in both scenarios'
#548 of 791 Re: November poll - voting results are in [gagrice]
Dec 12, 2009 (3:56 pm)
The Prius NAV is still at the bottom of the pile for 2010. Their $500 DVD updates are a total rip-off.
Neither statement is accurate.
#549 of 791 Re: November poll - voting results are in [kdhspyder]
Dec 12, 2009 (4:39 pm)
Toyota NAV units are JUNK. They are at the bottom of the latest JD Powers survey for good reason. They are not only overpriced to start with they are overpriced to update. Denso is a junk electronics company. Prius may have gone to a different brand for 2010. They are still at the bottom of the pile. 8 of the bottom 11 vehicles in the survey are Toyotas. Including the Prius. When I asked about an update for my 2007 Sequoia which came with a 2004 DVD the price was $450 plus tax, which is $493.88. You can call it what you like but my statements stand and you are misinformed. Toyota needs to break loose with a few of those Billions stashed in a Japanese bank and use quality electronics. Start giving the customers what they deserve for the money they spend.
#550 of 791 Re: November poll - voting results are in [gagrice]
Dec 13, 2009 (7:53 am)
>> Toyota Hybrids have peaked in sales and are headed down hill
Afraid of what the first 12 months of 2010 Prius sales will bring, eh?
Including the final 5 months of older generation sales (Jan-May 2009) and disregarding the down economy is rather obvious greenwashing. It's called cherry picking.
Waiting for an entire full year of data will confirm strong sales that the newest generation design. Watch the numbers in the top-10 seller list.
#551 of 791 Re: November poll - voting results are in [gagrice]
Dec 14, 2009 (7:25 am)
"Toyota NAV units are JUNK. . . "
It never occurred to me to spend $24,000 on a car to get a navigation unit. We bought a $200 nuvi GPS, Consumer Reports recommended, and it moves from car-to-car. This portable, removable GPS even works while walking, bike riding or trying to find our car in a mall parking lot.