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Hybrid Vehicles Toyota Prius Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI
519 messages, Last post on Nov 08, 2009 at 11:34 PM
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Replying to: ruking1 (Sep 23, 2009 1:01 pm) Uh... yes. I mentioned the effect of the Prius' electric motors many posts ago and tried multiple times to have you acknowledge that they impact the performance of the car. As I said, I'm glad we can move past that little speedbump now. I'm not sure we can, though, 'cause you keep making statements like, "I can't even imagine what the E/T would be (probably much LONGER) without that massive electric motor that is good from 0-1500 rpms." So while you acknowledge now the contribution to overall performance of the electric motors, you keep treating them as if they are something separate from the car. You would probably laugh if I said something like, "I can't even imagine what the E/T for the TDI would be (probably much LONGER) without that turbocharger that is good only under some driving situations."
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Replying to: backy (Sep 23, 2009 3:51 pm)
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Replying to: ruking1 (Sep 23, 2009 5:07 pm) Really in terms of competition ,the Camry hybrid more matches the Jetta in hp (147 hp vs VW TDI 140 hp. Torque (the real motivator) is somewhat mismatched 138# ft vs TDI's 236 #ft. There, and in several posts after that, you separated out the electric motor components of the Hybrid Synergy Drive and compared the output of the TDI to the output (hp and torque) of ONLY the ICE portion of the HSD. You completely ignored a major part of the HSD system. And I was clear in my earlier post that the 199 lb-ft of torque from the electric motors in the TCH was from 0-1500 RPM. So you are misquoting me when you say "in effect you tried to say you add the torque together through the band width". If you can prove that the only time the electric motors "kick in" for the Prius is when the gas engine is off, as you stated, please do. But I don't think you can because that's not how HSD works. Under hard acceleration, for example, both the gas engine and electric motors will contribute. Just like on a TDI, under hard acceleration the motor will be churning and the turbo will be spinning fast. Now that I have corrected your misstatements, let's move on.
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Replying to: backy (Sep 23, 2009 5:30 pm) Sorry guy, the above quote is still true about the Camry Hybrid, However lets do move on. And yes, I do know how the hybrid intergrates. The real world measures such as mpgs and zero to 60's times are the arbiters. The hybrid system really dont do much in the band width that is most important to me: 45 mph to 100 + mph (above 1,500 rpms) . Since the Prius fits your needs, that is what you care about anyway.
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Replying to: ruking1 (Sep 23, 2009 5:57 pm) With one little change: The above quote is still true about the Camry Hybrid if you ignore the fact that it is a gas/electric hybrid. 45 to 100+ mph, eh? Well, I see you and I are in a TOTALLY different world. "Through Truth to Freedom"
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Replying to: backy (Sep 23, 2009 7:03 pm) It would appear so. However starting  45 mph is pretty much the real world in this area. I notice Prius'es in that envelope. It is a tad bit hard to get mpg figures from Prius folks that operate in that envelope, as it appears a sizeable majority want to claim (king/queen of the hill dibs) 50 mpg or more, whether they do or not. I just really want an honest discusssion. To follow the "Toyota Prius Real World Numbers" mpg discussion, it would appear the majority is driving 55 mph or less to try to fight for the dibs and taking up hyper miling up as a serious hobby. It seems a few that report less than that are seen as less than worthy. WAY too much mental energy for not much gain.
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Replying to: backy (Sep 23, 2009 7:30 am) There are numerous complaints by Prius owners getting stuck because of the traction control on the Prius. As far as I know Toyota has not put a switch to disable that feature for driving in snow or on ice. The VWs have a switch to disable all the electronic gadgetry that takes control of the vehicle away from the driver. I prefer it that way. Toyota is unable to modify the troublesome Prius traction control system without placing the vehicle's sophisticated hybrid drive system in jeopardy, according to a Toyota service technician familiar with the Prius problem. In a mountainous or snowy areas, the little car can be more than just difficult, Prius owners complain. "I live in the mountains, up steep hills and dirt roads. I consider the slippage problem with the shutting down of power to the wheels just when you need more not less traction to be a very serious problem and a potentially life-threatening design flaw," a New England Prius owner told ConsumerAffairs.com. Again, the Prius is fine as a flat city car. Anything beyond that the Golf TDI will outshine the Prius.
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Replying to: backy (Sep 23, 2009 3:45 pm) How does the solidity of your (former) Rabbit's cabin compare to that of the 2010 Prius lol! true i guess. granted its probably difficult to 'wear' something as understated than that, but thanks for the laugh.  while i didnt absolutely HATE the new priuses interior, the quality of the swithchgear, surface textures and driving position all felt below that of my rabbit. def. better than the least gen prius, but still nothing to write home about. it looks cooler than it feels. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Sep 23, 2009 8:11 pm) I think I can understand both points of view. I just experienced my first real snow fall with the Prius. Portland just received 10 inches of snowfall overnight. Unfortunately, the city does not aggressively plow/salt the roads here. The local DOT posted a chains required warning for the entire city. As I do have to report to work tomorrow, I decided to test the conditions in the neighborhood. After shoveling out my driveway, the Prius(2007 touring) hit the streets. I was very impressed. The VSC system is very aggressive. I found that it under a great majority of conditions, it kept the car moving with exceptional stability. All of my previous cars(front wheel drive) tended to pull to one side. The VSC system(yellow light blinking constantly) kept it very steady. I did run into the power cut off phenomenon several times. Essentially, if the car has no traction it will not spin the wheels. This happened when I ran the car in 6-8 inches of unplowed snow. It was somewhat disconcerting, but I do believe that any other(similarly sized, fwd) car would have just been stuck spinning the wheels. Both times this happened, I was able to quickly remedy the problem by gently reversing and approaching from a slightly different angle. It actually is quite adept and doing the most with the least traction available. ( As some of you have pointed out, the Prius probably has less weight over the front wheels than most cars.) The Prius does not give you the traction of four wheel drive and you should probably put chains on in severe conditions. If I had the option of driving a 4x4 Duramax in really bad weather, I would. (Sadly I don't) However, I am very impressed with the VSC system. Having experienced midwest and east coast winters all my life, I think this system makes you look good. For example, I am used to building up some speed to make turns with heavy snow buildup. In my older cars, this maneuver would give me some serious "fishtailing". This is essentially eliminated with the Prius. This is without a doubt, the best car I have ever owned for snow driving. (Previous contenders SAAB 900(92-98), VW GTI(99-07)) http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1212ea/39#MSG39 Would I want to own a Prius if I lived in an area with steep hills or mountains, with snow/ice? No. I wouldn't own any 2WD vehicle in that kind of environment. I'd go with an AWD vehicle. And probably put winter tires on it in winter. |
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Replying to: ruking1 (Sep 23, 2009 7:47 pm) As for me, my goal is to do 45 to 100 also--but in mpg. I know 100 mpg is not achievable now under normal circumstances, even in a Prius, but I am confident I could average well over 50 in a Prius, with a big bias towards in-town driving. And maybe by the time I am ready to buy my next car, the plug-in Prius with lithium ion batteries will be available, and that 100 mpg will be closer to reality.
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