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Toyota Prius, Volkswagen Golf, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Hatchback, Sedan
#482 of 791 Re: wow [backy]
Sep 23, 2009 (12:41 pm)
Almost all of my driving is done under 2000 rpms on my Rabbit
really? you can never appreciate that meaty torque peak! at any rate, you could also argue that the tdi's super low torque output is just as effective. the torque curve on the prius is so narrow, that its ability to rocket you forward means nothing to someone who drives in the city slowly under 2000 rpms .(or at least shifts before then?)
at any rate, regardless of torque, the tdi flat out accelrates faster to 30, to 60, to anything, than a prius does. there is no refuting that.
Since the Prius clearly tops the Golf TDI in fuel economy (see earlier posts with graphs), what "stance" the Prius takes to FE is irrelevant. The FACT is the Prius has higher FE, and especially in the city, which is important to city dwellers like me.
i dont mind the way the prius look, i'm just saying that the prius would probably not be as successful as it is if it didn't wear its 'greeness' on its sleeve. i think choosing a car that says i car about the environment/saving gas/what have you etc in a very subtle way is far classier than one that says 'look at me i'm green!'. how many hybrid badges are on the prius anyway? lol. at any rate, that part of the german car appeal, understated elegance. the prius doesn't have any. the tdi does.
i'm a bigger highway driver than you backy, and diesels, while they do fine in the city, seem to make more sense for highway cruisers. and i also care about driving dynamics, and most hybrids are withouthem. the prius is totally devoid of steering feel, has poor body roll control, and is less involving than a lexus to drive.
sure hybrid owners may not care about vehicle dynamics, but VW realizes that saving gas and getting good fuel economy doesn't mean you have to sacrifice being a car enthusiast.
Yep, pretty solid. I do hope however that VW has done a better job in the new Golf in the squeaks/rattles/wind whistles department. I did get two rattles finally fixed in my Rabbit, but a loud wind whistle from the passenger door has defied repair up to now. I have to take it in soon and see if the dealer can fix it for good this time
my bunny kinda had some squeaks now and then, but all subsided/were not that bad to merit a trip to the dealer. i'd take the solidity and quietness of that cabin over my fit anyday.
from what i have read, the new mkVi is even quiter, with an even greater attention to detail.
#483 of 791 Re: What users are reporting [gagrice]
Sep 23, 2009 (12:48 pm)
"You have pointed out the fallacy of the EPA fuel economy ratings. Many of US including VW corporate have complained that the new calculations are very accurate for the hybrids and out in left field for the diesel cars. As your little exercise graphically points out. The average VW Jetta TDI owner gets about 19% better overall mileage than the EPA estimates. While the Prius is within 3% of the EPA rating."
I agree and actually I don't care for these "two number" tests whether EPA, Euro or anyone else. In fact, I cited the user reported MPG.
Personally, I prefer to see "mph vs MPG" charts because they let us choose the best cruise speeds versus just banging our wallets against the fuel pumps:
You'll notice the 1.5L Prius have a distinct 'knee in the curve' at 65 mph. Anything faster and their mileage soon drops off. Also, the 1.3L Honda Insight has a pretty steep slope. They really need to stay on the low side of 65 mph or their mileage tanks.
This is the type of performance data that should be in the owner's handbook for every car. For example, manual transmission cars often have distinct upper and lower speed ranges but unless someone spends a lot of time taking measurements, this is invisible to the owner ... yet I suspect the manufacturers have this data already.
BTW, if someone likes the creature comforts and non-fuel economy features of their ride and they can afford it ... more power to them. By the same token, folks need to realize that my "green" need is the money I keep instead of burning up. To each their own and that is the beauty of freedom.
#484 of 791 Re: wow [backy]
Sep 23, 2009 (1:01 pm)
"Great. I am glad you are in agreement that it is silly to compare specs on these cars (Golf TDI and Prius) while considering only a portion of their powertrains. So from now on, please mention total system output when referring to both cars' horsepower and torque. "...
Well I am glad you caught the effect of the 193 # ft electrical motor in the Camry Hybrid zero to 60 second time of 8.4 seconds vs the TDI Zero to 60 time of 8.9 seconds !! I can't even imagine what the E/T would be (probably much LONGER) without that massive electric motor that is good from 0-1500 rpms. In addition, the Camry Hybrid sports a 2.4 L motor vs the TDI's smaller 2.0 L.
#485 of 791 Any word at the dealer level?
Sep 23, 2009 (1:22 pm)
Has anybody hit a local VW dealer for the scuttle butt on when the new GTD will hit the show rooms?
#486 of 791 Re: Any word at the dealer level? [ruking1]
Sep 23, 2009 (2:50 pm)
The last I heard was that the GTD wasn't coming to the US because it didn't meet US emission standards.
#487 of 791 Re: wow [eldaino2]
Sep 23, 2009 (3:45 pm)
i dont mind the way the prius look, i'm just saying that the prius would probably not be as successful as it is if it didn't wear its 'greeness' on its sleeve.
And maybe the Golf would not be as successful if it didn't wear it's Germanic influence on its sleeve?
How does the solidity of your (former) Rabbit's cabin compare to that of the 2010 Prius?
#488 of 791 Re: wow [ruking1]
Sep 23, 2009 (3:51 pm)
Well I am glad you caught the effect of the 193 # ft electrical motor in the Camry Hybrid zero to 60 second time of 8.4 seconds vs the TDI Zero to 60 time of 8.9 seconds !!
Uh... yes. I mentioned the effect of the Prius' electric motors many posts ago and tried multiple times to have you acknowledge that they impact the performance of the car. As I said, I'm glad we can move past that little speedbump now. I'm not sure we can, though, 'cause you keep making statements like, "I can't even imagine what the E/T would be (probably much LONGER) without that massive electric motor that is good from 0-1500 rpms." So while you acknowledge now the contribution to overall performance of the electric motors, you keep treating them as if they are something separate from the car. You would probably laugh if I said something like, "I can't even imagine what the E/T for the TDI would be (probably much LONGER) without that turbocharger that is good only under some driving situations."
#489 of 791 Re: wow [backy]
Sep 23, 2009 (5:07 pm)
It started with your post #465 where YOU separated it out ! In effect you tried to say you add the torque together through the band width 138# ft with 193 # ft or 331 # ft. So it is pretty obvious when the electric motor kicks in is the time the gasser engine is off which helps to give the higher mpg ratings. The percentage difference is easy to see by looking up the Camry mpg figures (sans hybrid) I finally had to give you the real world Zero to 60 times to get you to focus. So let's move on.
#490 of 791 Re: wow [ruking1]
Sep 23, 2009 (5:30 pm)
You have a short memory. Go back to your post #401 (emphasis mine):
Really in terms of competition ,the Camry hybrid more matches the Jetta in hp (147 hp vs VW TDI 140 hp. Torque (the real motivator) is somewhat mismatched 138# ft vs TDI's 236 #ft.
There, and in several posts after that, you separated out the electric motor components of the Hybrid Synergy Drive and compared the output of the TDI to the output (hp and torque) of ONLY the ICE portion of the HSD. You completely ignored a major part of the HSD system. And I was clear in my earlier post that the 199 lb-ft of torque from the electric motors in the TCH was from 0-1500 RPM. So you are misquoting me when you say "in effect you tried to say you add the torque together through the band width".
If you can prove that the only time the electric motors "kick in" for the Prius is when the gas engine is off, as you stated, please do. But I don't think you can because that's not how HSD works. Under hard acceleration, for example, both the gas engine and electric motors will contribute. Just like on a TDI, under hard acceleration the motor will be churning and the turbo will be spinning fast.
Now that I have corrected your misstatements, let's move on.
#491 of 791 Re: wow [backy]
Sep 23, 2009 (5:57 pm)
..."Really in terms of competition ,the Camry hybrid more matches the Jetta in hp (147 hp vs VW TDI 140 hp. Torque (the real motivator) is somewhat mismatched 138# ft vs TDI's 236 #ft. "...
Sorry guy, the above quote is still true about the Camry Hybrid, However lets do move on. And yes, I do know how the hybrid intergrates. The real world measures such as mpgs and zero to 60's times are the arbiters. The hybrid system really dont do much in the band width that is most important to me: 45 mph to 100 + mph (above 1,500 rpms) .
Since the Prius fits your needs, that is what you care about anyway.