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Hybrid Vehicles Toyota Prius Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI
519 messages, Last post on Nov 08, 2009 at 11:34 PM
You are in the Toyota Prius Forum. Your Host is pf_flyer
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Replying to: backy (Sep 19, 2009 2:03 pm) You really like to deflect from the issues. So I will explain my position. Getting parts from where ever is NOT the issue. The issue is whether the EPA will allow those parts to be manufactured in the USA. Sort of like the current mandate for CFL bulbs that cannot be manufactured in the USA due to mercury regulations. If every part of a Prius could be manufactured here then it would not be a real issue. By sending the dirty work to countries like China and Indonesia means we are just as guilty of messing up the environment as if we had made the part in Kansas. Bottom line. Anything that cannot be made here under EPA regulations should not be allowed into the USA.
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Replying to: gagrice (Sep 19, 2009 2:20 pm) OK. So... why is that an issue in this discussion of the Golf vs. Prius? Are you saying that VW doesn't do the same kind of "dirty work" as Toyota, since it uses (or will soon use) similar parts e.g. traction batteries? Anyway... the reason batteries for hybrids aren't made in the US isn't because of EPA regulations, but more about restrictive licensing practices of patent-holders, and funding. The funding part might be solved now, for the US battery manufacturers: http://www.hybridcars.com/news/obama-invests-2point4-billion-plug-cars-and-batte- ries-25957.html If you can post for us the link to the EPA regulations that ban the manufacture of batteries for hybrids in the US, that would be great.
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Replying to: backy (Sep 19, 2009 3:41 pm) Almost all battery manufacturing for advanced technology vehicles is currently based in Asia. General Motors will receive more than $240 million in grants, including $106 million for its planned battery pack assembly factory in Brownstown Township. Ford will receive nearly $100 million, while Chrysler will get $70 million. It may not be impossible to manufacture a Li-Ion or NiMH cell here. It is the fact that getting through all the regulations takes years. By the time a permit is issued the technology is ancient. Where it only takes months in most countries it takes years if an EPA permit is ever issued. We have developed many technologies and found it easier and less of a hassle to just give it over to China to produce. Why would we want any technology that cannot be readily manufactured in the USA? China is making “vast progress” in lithium-ion battery manufacturing technology, according to a review published earlier this year by Argonne National Laboratory under the sponsorship of the US Department of Energy’s Office of Vehicle Technologies (OVT). Among the findings of the report on the state of the Li-ion industry in China are: From 2001 to 2004, the number of battery companies in China increased from 455 to 613; accordingly, the number of employees in those industries also increased from 140,000 in 2001 to 250,000 in 2004. The total output reached 63.416 billion Yuan ($8.1 billion) in 2004, which is an increase of 52.58% over 2001. In the past three to four years, companies outside of the Peoples Republic of China (PRC) have been bringing advanced battery technologies to the PRC and setting up partnerships and/or joint ventures to manufacture batteries for these and other applications (such as electric bikes, EVs, and HEVs) to take advantage of low labor cost and incentives provided by the Chinese government. Companies in the PRC are very aggressive in developing manufacturing processes for the batteries export market. Put simply we are at the trailing edge of every new technology.
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Replying to: gagrice (Sep 19, 2009 4:21 pm) That is 80% of the cost of the Volt going to China or Korea. Not that it has anything to do with our thread title. |
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Replying to: gagrice (Sep 19, 2009 4:21 pm) So in fact, there are NO EPA regulations that prevent batteries for hybrids to be made here. It's just that this technology takes some investment. Maybe Asian companies are more willing to make this kind of long-term investment, compared to companies in the US. Here's an article that sheds some light on that: http://www.atp.nist.gov/eao/wp05-01/chapt5.htm So can we drop all this c*** about the how terrible hybrids are because the Big, Bad EPA prevents components from being made in the US, and get back to talking about these two cars??
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Replying to: backy (Sep 19, 2009 6:42 pm) Simply put the Prius pollutes more than the Golf TDI until well into its life cycle. I question if it ever ends up cleaner. I have to bring out this chart from Toyota about once a year to keep people informed of the facts. Remember this was compared to a gas engine which will have much higher CO2 than a Golf TDI. 
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Replying to: gagrice (Sep 19, 2009 7:30 pm) In other words, you are saying the Golf TDI will pollute more over its lifetime than a Prius. I agree that for people concerned about the environment, that is something to consider in selecting one of these cars. Also, it appears gas engine cars will pollute more over their lifetimes than a Prius, except for particulate matter, based on the chart you provided. (BTW, is that chart for the 2010 Prius? I recall your mentioning this chart several years ago. Has it been updated since then?)
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Replying to: backy (Sep 20, 2009 5:14 am)
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Replying to: gagrice (Sep 20, 2009 7:15 am) That describes my wife and me pretty well. I get to cruise around the back country maybe once a year if that, and then it's pretty flat back country. The Golf TDI looks like a good choice for your needs. Or, you could tell your wife, "Honey, I've worked hard and I deserve a Porsche. Then get her a Beetle TDI, when it's available (women seem to love those), and enjoy the Porsche. Maybe a used one. 
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