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Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI - READ ONLY

791 messages,  Last post on Feb 28, 2010 at 9:19 AM

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What is this discussion about? Toyota Prius, Volkswagen Golf, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Hatchback, Sedan

Messages Page 45 of 80

#440 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [gagrice] by backy

Sep 18, 2009 (8:29 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Sep 18, 2009 7:53 pm)
According to Japan’s Nikkei, Toyota has put its U.S. Prius production plans on hold. The most popular hybrid in the world was slated to begin production in Mississippi in 2010, but those plans have now been pushed back to 2011 at the earliest.
 
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-delays-us-prius-production-plans.html
 
Why should it make any difference where the Golf is built?
 
It doesn't in general. The only thing about where the Golf is built that is relevant is, the level of quality of the plant. Otherwise, who cares except people who have a thing about buying a car not "made in the USA". Since only one of my cars was, and that's a Mazda, it doesn't matter to me. But it seemed there was a LOT of emphasis placed by some folks here on Priuses not made in the USA, Corolla factories closing, etc.
 
If Toyota was truly optimistic about the Prius sales they should have made room in one of their many plants that are running far below capacity.
 
The way I see it, if Toyota were truly optimistic about Prius sales, they would built a new plant for them. Which was the plan, before the auto market collapsed late last year. So they now have a partially-completed plant in MS that can still build Priuses when sales support it.
 
Anyway, since it doesn't make any difference where the Golf is built, it doesn't make any difference where the Prius is built, does it now?

#441 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [backy] by gagrice

Sep 18, 2009 (8:51 pm)

Replying to: backy (Sep 18, 2009 8:29 pm)
Anyway, since it doesn't make any difference where the Golf is built, it doesn't make any difference where the Prius is built, does it now?
 
Not to me it doesn't. I am thinking the Golf will be built in the EU for a while anyway. My point has always been that the Prius cannot be built in the USA due to pollution in manufacturing certain components. Many Prius drivers only care about tailpipe emissions. That is a small part of an automobiles pollution on the planet. Just because the batteries and motors are built in a third world country does not release them from guilt in my mind. The NoX, SoX and PM produced by the Prius in MFG far exceeds the non hybrid counterpart according to Toyota. The emissions only equals out at near end of life of the vehicles. On Particulate Matter the Golf will never be as polluting as the Prius.

#442 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [backy] by ruking1

Sep 19, 2009 (8:48 am)

Replying to: backy (Sep 18, 2009 8:16 pm)
.."Thank you. Thank you very much. I enjoyed that a lot. Great way to end the day. "...
 
I am no automotive pundit, but a consumer like you and most other interested car "nuts".
 
If I were to try to do a "lessons" learned on the Prius hybrid /Golf TDI comparo, it would be to quantify and qualify what a buyer's needs/wants/desires are.
 
The good news is that you can compare almost dissimilar products for a host of reasons. The bad news is you can compare almost dissimilar products for a host of reasons. The easiest would be to do comparos on similar products. I would also submit the oems do not make that an easy job most times.

#443 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [gagrice] by backy

Sep 19, 2009 (1:10 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Sep 18, 2009 8:51 pm)
My point has always been that the Prius cannot be built in the USA due to pollution in manufacturing certain components.
 
Then that was a really stupid thing Toyota did, planning and even starting that plant in Tupelo, MS, USA to build Priuses, wasn't it? To construct a factory to build cars that cannot be built there--that seems really strange, don't you think?
 
As for environmental impact, here's some data from the EPA. Feel free to provide your own data from an independent source comparing the 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf TDI:
 
Stat: Prius / Golf
 
Fuel Economy Combined: 50 / 34
Real-world Average FE: 51.7 / NA
Annual fuel cost: $774 / $1160
Annual petroleum consumption: 6.9 barrels / 11.9 barrels
Annual CO2 (tons): 3.7 / 6.2
EPA size class: midsized / compact
 
These figures are based on the defaults on www.fueleconomy.gov. It's possible to adjust things like fuel costs and miles driven to get numbers that reflect individual cases.
 
Do you have figures for particulate emissions for the 2010 Prius and 2010 Golf TDI? Also, do you happen to have a link to the report that shows the manufacture of the Prius generates more NoX, SoX, and PM far exceeds that of the Golf TDI?

#444 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [ruking1] by backy

Sep 19, 2009 (1:12 pm)

Replying to: ruking1 (Sep 19, 2009 8:48 am)
The easiest would be to do comparos on similar products.
 
Here we are comparing the Prius to the Golf TDI. Two hatchbacks with high fuel economy and roughly the same starting price. The Golf is a little shorter than the Prius, hence has less cargo space, but interior volume is pretty close. Very different powertrains of course. But if the cars were too similar, any kind of comparison would be pretty boring, wouldn't it?

#445 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [backy] by gagrice

Sep 19, 2009 (2:52 pm)

Replying to: backy (Sep 19, 2009 1:10 pm)
Then that was a really stupid thing Toyota did, planning and even starting that plant in Tupelo, MS, USA to build Priuses, wasn't it?
 
Assembling parts made in third world hell holes is not the same as manufacturing a complete vehicle. Last I read the F150 is the highest American content vehicle at 85%. I am sure you are aware that the Camry hybrids are only assembled here. The San Antonio Tundra plant is proof Toyota makes mistakes in their planning. So the answer to your quip is, Yes Toyota does Stupid things. In this case it is an empty shell that has not created the jobs Toyota promised the people of Tupelo. And the tax payers in that state are stuck with big promises and no revenue.
 
You will get to poke me back if VW does not live up to their promises in TN.

#446 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [backy] by ruking1

Sep 19, 2009 (2:58 pm)

Replying to: backy (Sep 19, 2009 1:12 pm)
..."But if the cars were too similar, any kind of comparison would be pretty boring, wouldn't it? "...
 
Actually that is a hard one to argue with !

#447 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [gagrice] by backy

Sep 19, 2009 (3:03 pm)

Replying to: gagrice (Sep 19, 2009 2:52 pm)
I don't think the execs at Toyota would argue with you that they have done a number of "stupid" things. But they did go forward with plans to build Priuses in the US--which you say is impossible.
 
In today's flat world, do you really expect every component of every car to be manufactured in one country? Does VW make all parts for the Golf in Germany, for example? Or all parts for the Jetta in Mexico? When they start making the new mid-sized car in TN, will all parts be made in the US? I doubt it.
 
Where are the batteries for VWs manufactured? For example, where will the NiMH batteries for the Toureg hybrid be made? Not that it matters to me... but it seems to matter to you.

#449 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [backy] by gagrice

Sep 19, 2009 (3:20 pm)

Replying to: backy (Sep 19, 2009 3:03 pm)
In today's flat world, do you really expect every component of every car to be manufactured in one country?
 
You really like to deflect from the issues. So I will explain my position. Getting parts from where ever is NOT the issue. The issue is whether the EPA will allow those parts to be manufactured in the USA. Sort of like the current mandate for CFL bulbs that cannot be manufactured in the USA due to mercury regulations. If every part of a Prius could be manufactured here then it would not be a real issue. By sending the dirty work to countries like China and Indonesia means we are just as guilty of messing up the environment as if we had made the part in Kansas.
 
Bottom line. Anything that cannot be made here under EPA regulations should not be allowed into the USA.

Messages Page 45 of 80

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