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Toyota Prius, Volkswagen Golf, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Hatchback, Sedan
#415 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [backy]
Sep 18, 2009 (5:57 am)
If you are as concerned about mileage as you say, you would be a VW fan rather than a Toyota fan.
"We are extremely pleased with our August sales results. The government sponsored Cash for Clunkers program was instrumental at sparking the entire auto industry. The fact that Volkswagen currently has more vehicles that attain 25 miles per gallon or better on the highway than any other brand well positioned us to capitalize on the program," said Mark Barnes, Chief Operating Officer, Volkswagen of America, Inc. "Volkswagen's success in the program is best illustrated by how well our extremely fuel efficient TDI models sold during the program, resulting in virtual sold out situation of our model year 2009 TDI inventory. However, 2010 model year Jetta sedan TDI's are now available in dealer showrooms and Jetta SportWagen TDI's will be available later this month," added Barnes.
The surge the Prius experienced, as you know, was the new improved model coming out prior to the C4C program being implemented. Toyota probably spends more money at the Congressional trough than does VW. The rush to get the clunker program going in spite of the fact they were not ready to handle the load was a plus for Toyota. VW does not overbuild as Toyota has done here in the USA. VW is profitable and Toyota is losing Billions. VW should pass Toyota as number one in the World next year. The Golf TDI will play a large roll as it increases the sales for VW in the USA. It all has to do with the exchange rate. Same reason Toyota gave for the short supply of Japanese built Prius last year. The sooner VW brings the TN factory on line and expands the already largest auto factory in Mexico, we shall see which company is the greenest of the green.
#416 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [gagrice]
Sep 18, 2009 (6:06 am)
In case you (and others) haven't noticed, I am not a "fan" of any particular brand. I OWN A VW. Do you? I've owned Toyotas, and many other brands. I currently own vehicles from four different manufacturers (kids, wife). I buy vehicles that meet my needs. Period. If a Golf TDI would meet my needs best, I would buy one. If a Prius would meet my needs best, I would buy one. (And one "need" is to fit within my budget.) Right now, I think my driving habits are a better fit for a car like the Prius than a car like the Golf TDI.
BTW, the quote you cited is directly opposed to your previous post, that C4C had little impact on VW diesel sales.
Also, please spare me your theories on which company spends more at the Congressional trough, unless you have facts to back it up. But even then, it's not pertinent at all to a discussion of two cars. Let's discuss them on their merits, OK?
#417 of 791 Re: disappointing promises [john1701a]
Sep 18, 2009 (6:39 am)
When ULSD (Ultra Low Surfur Diesel) finally arrived, it was a disappointment. Gas was still cleaner.
Purely conjecture and your opinion. RUG has more sulfur than ULSD. RUG has far more carcinogens than ULSD. The State of CA has much stricter rules on pumping Gasoline as the fumes are very dangerous to human health. The biggest problem with gasoline there is NO direct renewable alternative available as there is with diesel.
If, Peak Oil is just around the corner those with a Golf TDI will be still cruising while the Prius owner will be limited to about a mile when the battery runs down.
#418 of 791 Re: Toyota Prius vs VW Golf TDI [backy]
Sep 18, 2009 (6:44 am)
Yeah, I figured that 17K figure was probably a base model with no options, etc.
#419 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [backy]
Sep 18, 2009 (6:52 am)
In case you (and others) haven't noticed, I am not a "fan" of any particular brand.
Sorry, thought I was responding to John.
The Prius is not as hot of a seller as the RAV4 which is about the only vehicle that is up in sales this year over last. Of course the Prius is not in the sales league with the Corolla or Camry.
I do not agree with the VW person's quote on the C4C TDI sales. From my research the TDI models were selling like hot cakes prior to C4C. I would say it did help VW get rid of a bunch of their gassers.
"It's deeply disappointing that Toyota has joined in the lie-and-threaten game," says Dan Becker, director of the Sierra Club's global-warming program. Speaking to Automotive News [AN, sub], Mr. Becker is referring to Toyota's decision to join The Big 2.8 in lobbying Washington to throttle back on plans for higher Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards. The effort is sure to tarnish the transplant's green credentials and stoke the fires of domestic partisans
I don't see any signs of VW paying off Congress to get their way.
#420 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [gagrice]
Sep 18, 2009 (7:19 am)
Looks like it's not possible to keep this discussion on topic, and no one really seems to care that there are prospective buyers of these two cars (like me) here to learn more about the cars, not wind through endless debates over which company does more lobbying or which is "greener" or whatnot. That's a shame.
So anyway... here's another quote from the same article:
Tim MacCarthy, who retired last year as president of the international automakers association after more than 30 years of Washington lobbying, says he believes Toyota helped end the industry's just-say-no attitude toward increases in fuel economy standards.
An industry-backed bill nearing a vote in the House still would challenge the companies, MacCarthy and others say. It would require a fuel economy improvement of 30 to 40 percent within 15 years.
And VW does lobby Congress... for example:
And they lobby elsewhere, e.g. against proposed standards on vehicle emissions in Europe:
On 26 January 2007, German companies BMW, Volkswagen and DaimlerChrysler, together with the European units of Ford and General Motors sent a letter to Commission President Barroso. In the letter they asked him to withdraw the proposed new emissions standard, alleging that the proposed measures were “technically unrealisable” and would constitute “a massive industrial political intervention at the expense of the entire European, and especially the German, automobile industry”. They did not hesitate to evoke the spectre of massive industrial desertification: “The direct consequence would be the migration of a large number of jobs from the automobile manufacturers and the supplier industry”. This threat may have looked quite convincing as it came only two months after Volkswagen had announced restructuring plans that could result in the loss of up to 4,000 jobs in the Brussels region.
So if you think VW doesn't lobby for their best interests, even if it means working against actions to improve the environment... think again.
#421 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [backy]
Sep 18, 2009 (7:32 am)
You say it works against improving environment and I say the Golf TDI and other modern diesels work to improve the environment. If the EPA had their head where it belongs we would have matched the EU for automobile standards decades ago and be using a lot less fuel today.
By the way how much money did they stuff in the envelope with their letter?
If the Prius was as environmentally friendly as the proponents would have us believe it would be built here. There are many components in the Hybrids that could not be built here with current EPA regulations. NiMH batteries for one.
#422 of 791 Re: disappointing promises [gagrice]
Sep 18, 2009 (7:43 am)
..."When ULSD (Ultra Low Surfur Diesel) finally arrived, it was a disappointment. Gas was still cleaner. "...
John1709a's quote does not triangulate with the facts. While allrespect his rights to his opinions,his opinion is rooted in pure fantasy. Or to be more PC, not based on the facts.
RUG to PUG is required by law to be delivered 90 ppm sulfur and can be off line mitigated (fees) to 30 ppm sulfur.
ULSD is required by law to be delivered less than 15 ppm and is normally 5 ppm sulfur.
So RUG to PUG can be up to 18 times DIRTIER than ULSD.
Standard to standard RUG to PUG is 2 times dirtier than D2. (30 ppm/15 pm)
The more normal reality: RUG to PUG is 5 times dirtier (30 ppm/5 ppm)
(However that includes 90 ppm off line mitigated by fees to 30 ppm, so as you can see the reality is inflated ppm sulfur for RUG to PUG.)
We haven't even talked about bio diesel which is normally ZERO ppm to 2 ppm sulfur. Again we have gone over the hurdles the system has thrown in its way.
#423 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [gagrice]
Sep 18, 2009 (7:51 am)
You can "say" all you want. It does not change the fact that both Toyota and VW lobby the world's governments in their own interests. That is what many, many companies do. As for money in envelopes, if you are charging Toyota with bribing US government officials, then where is your proof? And if you have proof, isn't it really more a matter for the Dept of Justice than this forum? (If you contact the US Attorney General's office with your proof, they can follow up on it.)
You must have heard about the US factory for the Prius in Mississippi, which was put on hold last year when demand for the Prius dropped amid the plunge in gas prices?
#424 of 791 Re: C4C's impact on diesel sales [backy]
Sep 18, 2009 (7:58 am)
..."Consider that for the year, the Prius is Toyota's hottest selling car, with the least percentage reduction in sales of any of their cars. So while sales are slower than last year during this recession, it seems a lot of people still want one. There are just a lot fewer people who want a Toyota, and a car, in general this year. YTD sales for Prius are now close to 100,000 or over. What are YTD sales of the Jetta TDI? "...
If you put this into context that the fuel efficient (relatively) Prius in effect buys the right to produce less fuel efficient cars (Gagrice probably can add his perspective on this) Tundra, Tacoma, (real) Landcruiser, Landcruiser, Avalon, the luxo Lexus line, etc, it is even a greater factorial failure. Hopefully the cash for clunkers program will at least let Toyota (and others) to post a nominal profit.
..."You must have heard about the US factory for the Prius in Mississippi, which was put on hold last year when demand for the Prius dropped amid the plunge in gas prices?"...
Backys quote is redundant confirmation of what I am trying to say.
The fact that VW can't open its Chattanooga, TN plant to add to the capacity to produce 40% diesels, is still another. (redundancy)
So for example if hybrids are not selling why on earth would one (Toyota for example) up the production of... hybrids??????
You can also substitue VW in that syllogism and discuss from there.