Last post on Feb 28, 2010 at 8:19 AM
You are in the Hybrid Vehicles - Archived Discussions
This discussion is ARCHIVED. To reactivate the discussion, post a request in the Lost? Ask the Hybrids Host for directions! discussion.
What is this discussion about?
Toyota Prius, Volkswagen Golf, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Hatchback, Sedan
#320 of 791 Re: What are the chances for diesel?? [gagrice]
Sep 13, 2009 (6:18 am)
Again, the "real english:"
..."You want to know the real reason Toyota sells the Prius in the USA. CAFE makes it a good deal for them. For every Prius they sell they can sell 4 gas guzzlers that get 20 MPG without any penalties. So "lose a little to make a lot". Should be their ad campaign. "...
So in effect one whatever (i.e., Prius 45-50 mpg) buys multiple GAS GUZZLERS !!!!! It is a RATIO THANG !!!! Most folks truly do NOT understand this !!! If it were not so, how can upwards of 75% of the passenger vehicle fleet fall below the current "STANDARD" of 27 mpg??????
Anybody can google this claim (and get the specific wording), but even the EPA has done calculations and put it into "American speak" that a higher percentage of diesel passenger cars will significantly decrease the (imported) demand for oil. What folks really don't realize, even as the MIGHT know, but it is a true mathmatical certainty. So for example of one barrel of oil (42 gals) (for conversational purposes) yields 46% gasoline and 23.4% diesel. the EIA.gov saysSource: EIA March 2004 Data
So a min of 23% passenger diesel population would drop the demand enormously !! Another kicker: a .50 surcharge is tacked onto the price of gasoline ( RUG to PUG) for the fact that we EXPORT up to 22% of the diesel we refine that should be for cars. (but isn't obviously as the passenger diesel fleet is less than 1%). The other .50 cent surcharge is put on diesel to make it now "COMPETITIVE" with gasoline !!?? How perverse is that????
Ok, you are the government agencies. Do you want that .50 cent per gal tax from the Prius driver (50 miles./.50 cents or .01 cents a mile) or .50 cents per gal tax from the Tundra driver (15 miles/.50 cents or .0333 cents a mile) Even plainer english, do you want three.(dot) three times more taxes per mile driven?.... OR LESS? So do you want the good news? This is only one line of taxation on D2, RUG to PUG !!!!!
#321 of 791 Re: What are the chances for diesel?? [ruking1]
Sep 13, 2009 (6:21 am)
Amazing this report wasn't buried by the anti-diesel conspirators in Washington, eh?
Edit (since ruking1 edited his post after I entered mine): I am wondering if there is sufficient refinery capacity to support 23% of US cars being diesel. Perhaps we export diesel to support the diesel appetites in Europe? Do you suppose they will use more gas compared to diesel as we increase our use of diesel by 23 times what it is today? I doubt it. Unless capacity can increase to meet this new demand, we either won't have enough diesel fuel or prices will skyrocket to the point where it will be economically a tough sell vs. gas.
One thing that mystifies me about this whole debate is the lack of understanding that having both gas/electric hybrid options and diesel options is a good thing. It should not be an either/or proposition.
#322 of 791 Re: What are the chances for diesel?? [backy]
Sep 13, 2009 (6:30 am)
Or they might be correct in figuring the American public will not figure out the ramifications of something hidden in plain site. Let alone demand the removal of the .50 cent extra per gal of gasoline and diesel.
#323 of 791 Re: What are the chances for diesel?? [backy]
Sep 13, 2009 (7:32 am)
Why wouldn't VW want to send more TDIs here to address the big demand for diesels, which has been brought up here?
Simple answer. The American public is fickle. VW did not want a glut of diesels when the price of diesel exceeds RUG or when fuel prices are low. They watched Toyota sit on lots full of Prius when the price of gas dropped. Dribbling them in keeps the price up and supply low. VW did make money while Toyota lost $billions. Trying to anticipate the American buyer can be disastrous. Look at the D3.
So you are saying Honda does not have the engineering prowess to build a diesel that meets US regulations, as VW, MB, and BMW have done?
Evidently not. They were all press releases about the Honda diesels coming to the USA. They failed the EPA test with the automatic transmission and gave up. They are still trying to break into the EU market with their diesel. Maybe someday. They do need a competitor for the Camry hybrid.
So you are saying that VW and other automakers that sell diesels here don't benefit under current regulations for selling diesels? If so, that is not right and must be corrected. But I think your attack on Toyota in this regard is unfounded.
VW and Honda sell very few guzzlers compared to the D3 and Toyota. You may get a better understanding reading this WSJ article. Toyota does not build the Prius because they are looking out for the environment. In fact many studies show the Prius to be more damaging in the manufacturing than non hybrid cars.
Fuel Standards Are Killing GM
Sales of Toyota's Prius, Yaris, Corolla and Scion, for example, allow and encourage Toyota to market more Lexus 460s, Sequoia SUVs and Tundra pickups in the U.S. without incurring fines. Hyundai's success selling Accent and Elantra compacts allows it to sell 368-horsepower Genesis sedans.
What do you call the TDI, the 335d, etc.?
They are niche vehicles just as the hybrids are. With the exception of the Prius.
Sep 13, 2009 (7:32 am)
Man - I had no idea what I was getting into by following this thread.
You guys literally pull each sentence out of a post and over analyze it. Crazy not to mention time consuming.
TDI's are cool. Hybrids are pretty darn cool too - but they aren't fun to drive nor are they attractive to look at so the cons outway the pros FOR ME. MPG top priority? Prius baby - all the way. MPG and some fun driving, with a normal looking exterior? TDI baby - all the way.
The funny thing is no one, and I mean NO ONE, is going to cross the fence because of something someone says in this thread - so sometimes I wonder why we waste our time, figureatively speaking.
#325 of 791 Re: . [thammer62]
Sep 13, 2009 (7:40 am)
..."is going to cross the fence "....
Well at one time, US TDI owners drove gassers? MOST still do drive gassers!? Same with hybrid owners? For shame, some even drive TDI's and hybrids?
#326 of 791 Re: What are the chances for diesel?? [backy]
Sep 13, 2009 (7:59 am)
The diesel Honda Accord for USA was suppose to lack the urea bladder that exists in German models. Apparently they were not able to develop one without a urea bladder that passes US regulations.
No offence to people who like Hondas but Honda engineering is far too over-rated.
The Insight in my opinion is a joke. No competiitve diesels up their sleeves. No competive V8 or Rear drive versions for their Acura division. I remember years ago waiting in great anticipation for details of the new hybrid Accord and the rumored new hybrid Pilots Also more recently I remember how excited I was with regards to a diesel Accord and Pilot:
Must I say more.
Oh yes Honda makes good i4 engines. But that's about it and that in my opinion is just not enough in order to compete with their big boy competitors.
#327 of 791 Re: What are the chances for diesel?? [dewey]
Sep 13, 2009 (8:09 am)
The manual Honda Accord DID meet the so called 50 state diesel US regulations. But true to form, the US market requires mandates the overwhelming number of products that consume more fuel like... automatic transmissions. Since there were probably no advantages and incentives, etc., for Honda to sell their very fine 6 spd manual diesels here in the US market, they decided the potential gain was not worth the time, effort and logistics allocations, etc, etc., to certify the package (6 speed manual AND 6 speed automatic) Now there are some pretty interesting policy options that can be creatively set and implemented, but I don't want to be accused of rambling, if nobody is interested.
Incidently, Honda is having "challenging times" selling its cTDI products in European markets. European diesels are considered to be and have been demonstrated to be much better than Asian oems. Hybrids in that market are almost "like Edsels." The sidebar "near" disaster story: since new car sales in Europe are 70% diesel with the passenger diesel population over 50%, Honda's (for example but Japanese oem's as a category" lack of least ONE (1) sophisticated diesel was/is devastating. Most European car models have MULTIPLE diesel options to chose from !!!
So if the(Honda) gassers options are a strong suit, they are of course selling to a minority gasser / (slash) minority (everybody else sells gassers too) market. So in effect, the Japanese oems in Europe are like the D3 here; but probably worse off. They flat didn't and for the large part still do not make cars the majority of folks wanted to.... buy !!!??
So as a philosophical side bar macro comment: Europe despite having the reputation as being a "LESS than free market" (socialistic on one side of the argument) unlike America's reputation as having some of the MOST FREE markets, actually has much more competition and car product offerings(actual FREER markets) that the so call "FREE American markets"
It almost seems to be a state secret here, but I am curious what the Prius mpg is at autobahn speeds of say 100-125 mph.
In comparison, I have run a TDI for 6.25 hours, going 584 miles and taking on 12.1 gal of fuel for 48.26 mpg. I have done this altitude (6,500 ft, 2,200 ft, sea level , etc.).
#328 of 791 Re: What are the chances for diesel?? [dewey]
Sep 13, 2009 (10:04 am)
Dewey, I'm taking all the credit for convincing you to change from BMW to Toyota. I guess those years of arguing finally paid off, eh?
I am looking forward to seeing how you like the Prius over the coming winter months. At this point I would probably opt for a small diesel over a hybrid but I have never been sold on VW.
#329 of 791 Re: What are the chances for diesel?? [houdini1]
Sep 13, 2009 (10:27 am)
..."but I have never been sold on VW"...
Another reason why I have been an advocate of... more choice....