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Toyota Prius, Volkswagen Golf, Diesel, Hybrid Cars, Hatchback, Sedan
#293 of 791 Waiting for the cross country matchup Prius vs Golf TDI
Sep 12, 2009 (5:54 am)
This Edmund's video gives you a peak at what to expect. $5,000 premium you pay for a Prius to get comparable equipment. There is one more strike against the Prius… its manufacturing process pretty much makes your happy little bumper sticker null & void.
Prius vs Jetta TDI, 8000 miles Portland to Portland. Interesting stories from the drivers.
For those of you solely fixated on stats, the MPG part of this was that the CBTDI Jetta acheived an average of 41.4 MPG against the Prius 40.96 MPG (corrected).
Honestly, this isn't great mileage for EITHER vehicle, I usually get a good 44- 48 MPG on my '06 TDI that I drive here in the Northwest (combo city/highway) and I won't even start on the Prius stats I'm sure the good folks over at 'PriusChat' can (and probably will) throw at me. But they are what they are - and we promised transparancy. Remember, we drove these cars HARD like real people - not like a bunch of hyper-milers or MPG gauge watchers. The journey inherently contained a lot of highway mileage - we typically drove at or over the speed limit (like real people do) and while we did switch drivers on a fair and regular interval - we drove both cars with a heavy foot.
For us, this challenge wasn’t about mileage – as we said, the internet is filled with that stuff – for us the real “test” in our case, was a (Green) Human one. Traveling 8,000 miles in a few short weeks amounting to a lot of driving and gave our testers the chance to really get to know each vehicle. The challenge was about cars and PEOPLE.
#294 of 791 Stale News
Sep 12, 2009 (7:03 am)
Nothing like old news.
A prior generation Prius? Is this the best you can dig up?
Nothing like news biased by the tester himself?
Please note the tester himself is someone who drives a TDI which if you are not aware shows where his bias is.
This anecdotal stale news is worth nothing compared to the compelling data recently provided by Bob Wilson which consists of a larger population and real data. Not the ramblings of a highly biased and narrow minded TDI owner/tester .
My cousin in Toronto struggles to get 30 MPG on his 05 VW TDI.
I am now getting over 50 MPG with similar traffic conditions as what he is faced
The first few weeks of ownership I got about 45 MPG but now eureka I am above 50 MPG. Not bad for a former lead footed BMW driver.
That in itself says a lot.
C'mon Volks you can do better than that? Is this all you do to debate the merits of a VW TDI.
How it does in a race track? (boy nothing is as exciting as a dull TDI or hybrid econo boxes on a race track)
The cost per mile ownership of a econ-Corolla compared to a Camry-platform based Prius. Now ain't that relevant?
The Honda Fit versus TDI I think would be a better forum because after this discussion I dont think the TDI can even compare to a PRius.
Good bye Volks
#295 of 791 Re: Stale News [dewey]
Sep 12, 2009 (8:01 am)
I for one am glad you are having more fun in a Prius. It is more than apparent you were horribly mis-matched to a BMW 335 I. Perhaps " the eyes were bigger than the stomach", as the saying goes.
However diesel's flexibility is one of its neat features, as I am sure you have heard of the BMW 335 D with 265 hp/425 # ft of torque !!This thing can be literally a monster in a compact sized package. 33 to 36 mpg (vs the 335I gassers 20-24 mpg) is pretty trick for this kind of GO (35% better as a minimum) . I for one loved it, but it is first and foremost a ROAD car and the greater % of mileage would have been for commuting.
The tire replacement costs would match the fuel costs ! Since it is a purposeful commute, my last (4 each) tires replacement on a Honda Civic 75,000 miles cost TOTAL as much as one BMW 335 I tire would cost.
However the thread is stale news in light of the fact the 2010 Golf TDI is not yet out on the market. So in that sense, I have taken pains to compare a 03 TDI to an 03/04 Prius. Over in the real world Prius mpg numbers, John (un abashed Prius promoter trying to masquerade as impartial car nut) almost had a cow when I mentioned my real world 03 TDI mpg numbers. He seems to take great pride in citing the latest Prius MPG and totally ignoring the environmental as well as financial ramifications of buying 3 cars to one. On the other hand, there is NOTHING wrong with buying 3 cars to one. However that might be another discussion.
#296 of 791 Re: Waiting for the cross country matchup Prius vs Golf TDI [gagrice]
Sep 12, 2009 (8:19 am)
The saga of those highly suspicious MPG values went on for months. Here's what was posted before the hastily changed correction:
"For those of you solely fixated on stats, the MPG part of this was that the CBTDI Jetta achieved an average of 37.4 MPG against the Prius 34.96 MPG."
Of course, the rush to use a 2009 instead of a 2010 was a dead giveaway to question intent right from the start. MPG was touted as extremely important all along the way, yet numbers were never posted. Then afterward, we got weeks of downplaying that importance. Then when they were finally revealed, they suddenly got "corrected". No detail was ever provided.
#297 of 791 Re: Stale News [dewey]
Sep 12, 2009 (8:30 am)
Please note the tester himself is someone who drives a TDI which if you are not aware shows where his bias is.
That makes my point exactly. Your bias lies with Prius as that is what you drive. I am waiting for Toyota to come to the plate. After their RX400h got whupped in the match-up with the Mercedes diesel they have played it low key. They currently hold the winning hand with a car that sells good. As more diesels start filtering in, such as the Golf TDI and people get to realize that you don't have to drive a frumpy looking, poor handling car to get good mileage, VW will increase their market share. Just as VW did in the Cash for Clunkers program.
You are making a claim that cannot be confirmed in the platform for the Camry being the basis for the Prius. Probably the closest match in the Toyota lineup would be the Matrix and the Prius. The Jetta Sportswagen offers a lot more room for stuff than the Prius. 35% more storage than a Prius to be exact..
#298 of 791 Re: Stale News [gagrice]
Sep 12, 2009 (8:40 am)
Folks like dewey and John1701a probably finds counterpoints absolutely galling !! I am sure they would support the concept of an ANTI diesel CZAR !?
The edmunds.com piece indicates there might be an app $7,000 premium over the Jetta TDI (certainly there is a range).
2.93 (current diesel prices vs RUG 3.07) , that $7k premium would buy 2,389 gals of D2 fuel, or 40 mpg, 95,563 miles more.
Since the (TBD) 2010/2011 Golf is a less pricey variant over the Jetta and the MSRP and invoice pricing are yet to hit the data files, there are probably even more premium differences between Golf 's and 2010 Prius'es.
Further, you would think that Toyota would engineer ( later gen) Prius'es to have much better handling and durability of wear able parts than it already does.
But the counterpoint: if the customer base is just fine with lousy sub par handling and low durability performance..., why bother? (and they haven't)
This might be a tad TOO technical or TMI (too much information) , but Toyo won a portion of the lowest bidder contract to provide so called "lower rolling resistance" tires for the 2010 Prius.
Upshot: I would be interested in how many miles the oem Toyo Prius tires will do (from real users like...John1701a.)
Through a lot of research for replacement tires for the TDI, Toyo seems to have done a great job in price/performance parameters and seems to offer great oem replacement tires that are better than.... oem. Time/mileage will tell whether or not it will match or exceed the TDI oem tires's of 112,300 miles or.... NOT. So far , except for new tires break in , I have not experienced a hit in mpg. Indeed the mpg is the best that it has ever been.
#299 of 791 diesel vs. hybrid-diesel
Sep 12, 2009 (10:12 am)
It's blatant misrepresentation like that which causes the problem.
In short: NON-HYBRID diesel
There's nothing wrong with diesel when used in a clean & efficient manner.
But certain people absolutely insist that's not the case. They continue to claim that hybrid supporters only want gas and will argue against anything diesel. That just plain is not true.
We've seen PZEV prototypes of diesel vehicles. We know how efficient hybrids are. Why some automakers refuse to deliver either is no reason to misrepresent those who endorse the next-generation products.
Face it, traditional (engine-only) technology cannot deliver both our efficiency & emissions needs. Adding an electric motor is required.
#300 of 791 Re: diesel vs. hybrid-diesel [john1701a]
Sep 12, 2009 (10:28 am)
..."They continue to claim that hybrid supporters only want gas and will argue against anything diesel. That just plain is not true. "
Indeed, I am not against hybrids or gassers, but you knew that and ignore that to make false syllogisms..
In your false syllogism, the facts are still 97% passenger vehicle fleet RUG to PUG and LESS than 1% passenger diesel (75% of 3% diesel are light truck diesels). Of the 97% RUG to PUG app 2% are 100 % gasser/hybrid. There are no E85 ethanol/hybrids. So if you count the 2% hybrid passenger vehicle fleet starting with the 2003 Prius or 5.114 M vehicles (.00333% per year) to get to 12% SUV population) or 30.684 M vehicles , current growth rate will take app 36 years.........This is with a PRO HYBRID attitude. With a less than 1% passenger diesel population it would be hard to conclude the policy and attitude has been PRO diesel. Indeed anti diesel as been the rule.
Diesels continue to offer a cost effective alternative to the gasser hybrid and to the gassers only.
This is purely an op/ed, but it would seem that no good deeds go unpunished. For as the population of Prius' grow in places like LA LA land, where by far has the greatest population of hybrids.. the warnings are ever more about the quality of air getting ever worse.
#301 of 791 Re: Stale News [gagrice]
Sep 12, 2009 (12:10 pm)
.You are making a claim that cannot be confirmed in the platform for the Camry being the basis for the Prius. Probably the closest match in the Toyota lineup would be the Matrix and the Prius
How can you criticize a claim that is posted everywhere and is in itself a fact.
Why dont you Google" MC platform" which happens to be the platform of the current Toyota Camry and Toyota Prius .
How can you say this is not confirmed?
How can you make arguments against a car when you dont even know what it really is.
The new Prius is essentially the same size as its predecessor, although it is based on the Toyota MC platform, which is used for vehicles including the current Camry.
Sep 12, 2009 (12:16 pm)
sport package Run Flat 18 inch tires go for about Canadian $800(with taxes in Ontario)
Sorry but additional tire costs are going to be substantially more than gas savings especially if you a driver who drove as aggressively as I did and who visited more traffic courts than I am willing to admit
A BMW 335d is a thrill seeking decision not an economic decision based on savings.
My BMW 335i was a piece of unreliable junk and I am just glad I am not experiencing the same thing any more . The Ultimated Driving Me Crazy Experiences were too hard for me to bear.
The BMW 335d and BMW X5d are doing lousy in North America. These new introduced vehicles can only be sold with $4500 of incentivized bribe money. The Lexus hybrid RX450h are HOT vehicles without significant incentives while there will be acute shortages of the new hybrid Lexus HS.
You would expect waiting lists for new BMW diesels but the reality dictates otherwise. Fortunately Lexus is not losing any sleep over BMW diesels.