- #154 of 590
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Re: What else changed? [wwest]
by 210delray
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Apr 06, 2009 (6:23 pm)
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Replying to: wwest (Apr 06, 2009 6:10 pm)
I agree that the rear swing axle causing "tuck-under" and subsequent rollover was the most serious problem with the original Corvair. However the inherent tendency of the car to oversteer was not disclosed to the typical buyer, who was led to believe the car would handle like a typical RWD car of its day -- that is, understeer at the limit.
I disagree with you though that today's FWD cars are inherently unsafe compared to their RWD peers. If this were even marginally true, where is the evidence -- wouldn't we have seen an increase in deaths/injuries on the roads over the past 30 years when FWD became far more popular among cars?
But this really isn't the place to be discussing this...supposed to be talking about the 2010 Camry.
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- #155 of 590
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Re: What else changed? [210delray]
by wwest
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Apr 06, 2009 (10:32 pm)
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Replying to: 210delray (Apr 06, 2009 6:23 pm)
"..-- wouldn't we have seen..." ??
No, developments and inventions like airbags, ABS, VSC, F/awd and now especially TCS have helped to keep all that in check.
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- #156 of 590
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Re: What else changed? [wwest]
by kdhspyder
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Apr 07, 2009 (6:08 am)
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Replying to: wwest (Apr 06, 2009 10:32 pm)
Yes precisely..
Now that you've had your say on this subject in this forum like you have in every forum you participate in ... let it go. We've heard this same rant over and over and over and over and over and ..... in every FWD vehicle that comes along.
We understand your pov. Not that many agree with it but we understand where you stand.
Next subject.
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- #157 of 590
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Re: What else changed? [wwest]
by houdini1
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Apr 07, 2009 (6:12 am)
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Replying to: wwest (Apr 06, 2009 10:32 pm)
I can't argue with your statement that front wheel drive cars are patently unsafe, but rear wheel drive cars are also patently unsafe. So is getting out of bed in the morning. That's life.
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- #158 of 590
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Re: What else changed? [wwest]
by acdii
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Apr 07, 2009 (7:19 am)
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Replying to: wwest (Apr 06, 2009 6:02 pm)
In regards to the TC on a Prius, you don't understand what I meant. The engine completely shuts down, not powers down, shuts down! I fully understand traction control, and have had it in both FWD and RWD cars since 1992. The Prius(maybe they fixed it post 2007) literally shuts down all power to the drive wheels when slip is detected, making for a dangerous situation at times. There was one time I could not get up a slight grade when snow was on the ground, I would move forward a few inches then stop, spin, stop, spin, stop, get the picture? No other car that I have driven did that, they all used the pulse of the anti lock brake system to control wheel spin. When pulling out, if the wheels spun for just a bit, all power was disabled for nearly 2 seconds, and when you have traffic coming, 2 seconds means a lot, and I am not talking about rain, or snow, I am talking about a little sand or gravel in the intersection. IMO the Prius has a bad flaw when it comes to the Traction Control, and was the major reason I got rid of it in less than a year of owning it. OTOH my TCH does not have the same TC setup, and works just fine.
Oh and BTW, from a previous post, yes you can defeat the VSC on the Camry, its a secret handshake that does it. 
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- #159 of 590
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Re: What else changed? [acdii]
by thegraduate
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Apr 07, 2009 (7:41 am)
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Replying to: acdii (Apr 07, 2009 7:19 am)
For the majority of owners, they won't do it without a button or something. Thankfully, all the cars I've driven don't have such a hindering ESC system (if they have one at all). Those that have had it were cars from the big H, and as we all know, they come with a button to turn it completely off.  Why can't Toyota do something so simple?
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- #160 of 590
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Re: What else changed? [acdii]
by wwest
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Apr 07, 2009 (8:01 am)
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Replying to: acdii (Apr 07, 2009 7:19 am)
I haven't driven many cars with TC, and even fewer in conditions wherein TC actually activated. But going all the way back to our '92 LS400 you just adequately described the operation, TC activated = NO GO FORWARD.
Our '92 has the ability to turn TC off and I developed the practice of doing just that each and every time I started it. On the subject of the Prius as an engineer I understand the TC design. Using the brakes for TC would be a poor compromise when you have linear functionality of the synchronous A/C drive system at hand.
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- #161 of 590
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Re: What else changed? [thegraduate]
by wwest
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Apr 07, 2009 (8:18 am)
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Replying to: thegraduate (Apr 07, 2009 7:41 am)
Basically, turning FWD & F/awd TC off, for many engineers, is a tad beyond engineering comprehension.
Why is TC activating, why has TC activated?
Because there is TOO much drive torque being applied to the driven wheels for the level of trcation available....
So think of TC, first and foremost, as an early warning of roadbed conditions.
Now that TC has activated what is, should be, your next move...??
Try to "feather" the throttle ever so lightly as to get moving forward without breaking through the "traction barrier". Try applying just enough torque to get the vehicle going forward.
Doesn't work...??
Call a tow truck or add traction. Tire chains..??
Most folks with even a minor level of experience driving in wintertime low traction conditions will tell you that disabling TC so as to allow unlimited wheelspin/slip will almost never be of much help. If the slippery "layer" is thin enough that the heat of a spinning tire can break/cut through, then yes. Or if you need to use wheelspin/slip to rock the car back and forth to get unstuck, then again, yes.
But keep in mind that had that Prius TC system allowed you to go "spinning out" across that intersection what would you have done if a quick turning maneuver had been required and then, ONLY THEN, you discovered the poor traction conditions...??
What then...!!
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- #162 of 590
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Re: What else changed? [wwest]
by acdii
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Apr 07, 2009 (9:56 am)
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Replying to: wwest (Apr 07, 2009 8:18 am)
On all cars EXCEPT the Prius, you still have some forward momentum or power being applied, the Prius TC=ZERO power being applied! Ask anyone who drives a Prius with stock tires how disconcerting it is to try to pull out into traffic or go up a hill when there is a little sand or gravel on the road and you wind up not going anywhere quickly. There are some out there who couldnt make it up their own driveway with stock tires! The whole point of giddy up and go is lost when it kicks in. In any other car a little wheel slip wont put you in a ditch, so the tire slips a little, but you still go. The TC on the Prius is HYPERSENSITIVE! Just a little slip of a tire kicks it in, and that is my whole point here. The same intersection with the Camry, the tires slip a little still, but the TC doesn't kick in at all, get the point? Prius Vs Camry, both Hybrids, same amount of traction, Prius no go, Camry go. No matter how you "feather" the Prius, when you have poor traction, it doesn't go because the TC prevents any power to be applied. In all the other cars, at least you still have some power being applied to the wheels still turn, they may still slip some, but they will still turn, NOT in the Prius, they STOP!
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- #163 of 590
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Re: What else changed? [wwest]
by dudleyr
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Apr 07, 2009 (2:05 pm)
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Replying to: wwest (Apr 06, 2009 6:10 pm)
I used to own a '63 corvair convertible, and tuck under was not even on the radar compared to an extremely happy rear end. Driving at speeds that a Camry could do easily (trying to stay on topic) the rear end would suddenly try to pass the front end when going around corners.  To say it is like a Porsche is quite an insult to that brand.
Maybe your experience in driving a first generation Corvair is different. 
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