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2010 Toyota Camry

569 messages,  Last post on Nov 22, 2009 at 7:58 AM

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#151 of 569
Re: What else changed? [acco20] by 210delray
Apr 06, 2009 (5:48 pm)
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Replying to: acco20 (Apr 06, 2009 3:45 pm)

He's totally serious, believes FWD cars are inherently less safe than RWD cars because of a supposed tendency of the former to be more susceptible to understeer on pavement that's not dry. Silly me, I always thought oversteer was more dangerous for the average driver because it can cause a car to swap ends! The latter was one of Nader's chief criticisms of the original Corvair.
 
I know I'd take understeer any day. Front wheels lose traction, the natural tendency is to immediately ease up on the gas. Result: car slows down, weight transfers to the front, and traction (and steering control) regained. With oversteer, you have to be very quick with the steering wheel to keep the rear end from coming around!
#152 of 569
Re: What else changed? [acdii] by wwest
Apr 06, 2009 (6:02 pm)
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Replying to: acdii (Apr 06, 2009 8:29 am)

"..poor traction control that shut down the motor..."
 
There is a good, SOLID, foundation for dethrottling the engine of a FWD or F/awd the very instant wheelspin/slip due to too much engine torque for roadbed conditions is detected.
 
Many of today's RWD and R/awd vehicles also have TC, Traction Control, but the design parameters often differ in that while the moderate braking of a spinning of slipping wheel will still be virtually INSTANTANEOUS, the engine dethrottling will often be delayed. The dethrottling delay will sometimes be for multiple seconds and in some cases only a few hundred milliseconds.
 
Why...??
 
With loss of traction, wheelspin/slip due to too much engine torque for roadbed traction conditions on a RWD or R/awd the driver still has the ability to maintain directional control. Not so with FWD or F/awd, therefore the design engineers must do their utmost to prevent an extended period of loss of traction on one of these vehicles.
 
So I stand by my statement, while FWD & F/awd vehicles are being made less unsafe via the specific TCS implementation they remain patently UNSAFE. ons.
 
Most learned or experienced 4WD and 4X4 drivers are well aware that it is patently UNSAFE to drive, even on a low traction surface, above dead slow with the front drive engaged. Regretably there is no FWD or F/awd with automatic transaxle vehicle wherein the front drive can be disengaged, nor even QUICKLY disengaged(***) when conditions warrant.
 
*** Of course you could, as the AAA recommends, quickly shift the transaxle into neutral to alleviate the potential from loss of control due to engine compression braking.
#153 of 569
Re: What else changed? [210delray] by wwest
Apr 06, 2009 (6:10 pm)
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Replying to: 210delray (Apr 06, 2009 5:48 pm)

The biggest problem with the Corvair was the potential for a rear axle/wheel to "tuck-under" in a severe stearing maneuver. Otherwise it had the same shortcoming as today's Porsche 911 and original VW beetle, so much rear weight bias that once you let them, CAUSED them, to start coming around, swapping ends, it was/is practically impossible to stop the rotation.
#154 of 569
Re: What else changed? [wwest] by 210delray
Apr 06, 2009 (6:23 pm)
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Replying to: wwest (Apr 06, 2009 6:10 pm)

I agree that the rear swing axle causing "tuck-under" and subsequent rollover was the most serious problem with the original Corvair. However the inherent tendency of the car to oversteer was not disclosed to the typical buyer, who was led to believe the car would handle like a typical RWD car of its day -- that is, understeer at the limit.
 
I disagree with you though that today's FWD cars are inherently unsafe compared to their RWD peers. If this were even marginally true, where is the evidence -- wouldn't we have seen an increase in deaths/injuries on the roads over the past 30 years when FWD became far more popular among cars?
 
But this really isn't the place to be discussing this...supposed to be talking about the 2010 Camry.
#155 of 569
Re: What else changed? [210delray] by wwest
Apr 06, 2009 (10:32 pm)
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Replying to: 210delray (Apr 06, 2009 6:23 pm)

"..-- wouldn't we have seen..." ??
 
No, developments and inventions like airbags, ABS, VSC, F/awd and now especially TCS have helped to keep all that in check.
#156 of 569
Re: What else changed? [wwest] by kdhspyder
Apr 07, 2009 (6:08 am)
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Replying to: wwest (Apr 06, 2009 10:32 pm)

Yes precisely..
 
Now that you've had your say on this subject in this forum like you have in every forum you participate in ... let it go. We've heard this same rant over and over and over and over and over and ..... in every FWD vehicle that comes along.
 
We understand your pov. Not that many agree with it but we understand where you stand.
 
Next subject.
#157 of 569
Re: What else changed? [wwest] by houdini1
Apr 07, 2009 (6:12 am)
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Replying to: wwest (Apr 06, 2009 10:32 pm)

I can't argue with your statement that front wheel drive cars are patently unsafe, but rear wheel drive cars are also patently unsafe. So is getting out of bed in the morning. That's life.
#158 of 569
Re: What else changed? [wwest] by acdii
Apr 07, 2009 (7:19 am)
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Replying to: wwest (Apr 06, 2009 6:02 pm)

In regards to the TC on a Prius, you don't understand what I meant. The engine completely shuts down, not powers down, shuts down! I fully understand traction control, and have had it in both FWD and RWD cars since 1992. The Prius(maybe they fixed it post 2007) literally shuts down all power to the drive wheels when slip is detected, making for a dangerous situation at times. There was one time I could not get up a slight grade when snow was on the ground, I would move forward a few inches then stop, spin, stop, spin, stop, get the picture? No other car that I have driven did that, they all used the pulse of the anti lock brake system to control wheel spin. When pulling out, if the wheels spun for just a bit, all power was disabled for nearly 2 seconds, and when you have traffic coming, 2 seconds means a lot, and I am not talking about rain, or snow, I am talking about a little sand or gravel in the intersection. IMO the Prius has a bad flaw when it comes to the Traction Control, and was the major reason I got rid of it in less than a year of owning it. OTOH my TCH does not have the same TC setup, and works just fine.
 
Oh and BTW, from a previous post, yes you can defeat the VSC on the Camry, its a secret handshake that does it.
#159 of 569
Re: What else changed? [acdii] by thegraduate
Apr 07, 2009 (7:41 am)
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Replying to: acdii (Apr 07, 2009 7:19 am)

For the majority of owners, they won't do it without a button or something. Thankfully, all the cars I've driven don't have such a hindering ESC system (if they have one at all). Those that have had it were cars from the big H, and as we all know, they come with a button to turn it completely off. Why can't Toyota do something so simple?
#160 of 569
Re: What else changed? [acdii] by wwest
Apr 07, 2009 (8:01 am)
Reply

Replying to: acdii (Apr 07, 2009 7:19 am)

I haven't driven many cars with TC, and even fewer in conditions wherein TC actually activated. But going all the way back to our '92 LS400 you just adequately described the operation, TC activated = NO GO FORWARD.
 
Our '92 has the ability to turn TC off and I developed the practice of doing just that each and every time I started it. On the subject of the Prius as an engineer I understand the TC design. Using the brakes for TC would be a poor compromise when you have linear functionality of the synchronous A/C drive system at hand.

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