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Automotive News & Views Are The Japanese Poised to Dethrone the 911 AND the Z06?
194 messages, Last post on Nov 24, 2008 at 12:05 PM
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Replying to: pmc4 (Mar 16, 2008 4:39 pm) They are cited, but not official. Magazines don't make official times. Only a licened timing official can do that. And that is typically only at a racing event with telemetry data. A journalist and a stopwatch doesn't count. That is what Autobild was pointing out. They were just being honest that just because a magazine says it, its not official. They are not saying it didn't happen. Autobild is still saying those times are just as legit as any other magazine cited times. Anyway, that means that there is no point in guessing which times are real and which ones aren't. But I'm totally convinced now. It should be true that the lightest car is the fastest, no exceptions. Which must mean the Z06 is pathetic for its weight. Any 500hp 3100lb car should be able to beat the GT3, the GT2, the Turbo, the Carrera GT, the Mercedes Benz CLK DTM AMG, Mercedes Benz SLR, Lamborghini Murcielago LP640, Bugatti 16/4 Veyron, Koenigsegg CCR, Pagani Zonda, Ford GT. But its not! Until you started this weight argument I actually liked the Z06, but it really just doesn't seem like its meeting its potential. Since performance is all about weight, I've really lost all respect for the Z06 that is slower than cars 200, 600, 1100 lbs heavier. Maybe you could try not being so condescending when you try to talk about dynamometers (of which you had no prior knowledge) or official times (of which you have no idea) , or V6 vs I-6 engines (which you were flat out wrong about). You're batting almost 1.000 on being wrong. Why would I get mad about that?
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Replying to: pmc4 (Mar 16, 2008 5:04 pm) However the 350Z isn't the ground shaker the 300ZX was any more than the RX-8 will give the same thrills the RX-7 did. Times are changing and this is the second time we were promised the Giant killer Skyline would darken our shores and make us all forget the people that have been with us for years proving their case year after year at all the major race tracks in the world. Reading reviews on cars from Porsche, BMW. Audi or even Corvette, Viper or Ford GT we didn't hear about what they were going to do till after they showed what they could do.
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Replying to: boaz47 (Mar 16, 2008 10:44 pm) The reason for all the hype is that when the R32 came out (USA regardless), it was widely considered the most technically advanced car in the world. It laid down the law against the more 'loyal' providers. So even if Nissan doesn't continuously provide a supercar, the last time they did it made a real impression for those that remember. And actually I remember when the Ford GT was coming out and it reminded people of the old GT-40. There was just as much speculation and wonder going on about that car prior to its release. As it was with the R8. Also keep in mind that Ford recently abandoned its supercar fans, and Dodge will soon as well. Nissan is seizing a clear opportunity.
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Replying to: bigmclargehuge (Mar 17, 2008 4:09 am) There is no debate and no doubt in engineers or racers minds that weight is the enemy of performance. And I think most of the cars mentioned here have a weight-problem, and I'd also include the EVO and STi. The goal should be <3,000 Lb for a sports-performance car. These overloaded, super-sophisticated machines that will do everything except make your latte, are ridiculous.
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Replying to: kernick (Mar 17, 2008 5:28 am) I read all this and wonder if any of these cars are as fun to drive as a Miata. |
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Replying to: kernick (Mar 17, 2008 5:28 am) I am in total agreement that performance cars are getting overbloated. I'd prefer if they all went on a diet as well. However, there is also no denying that some companies have ways to engineer around the problem, and there is no shortage of heavy cars with stunning performance. Rediculous or not, fact is fact. Sometimes adding a little weight can improve performance without sacrificing comfort. The Porsche Turbo, for example, is a 3500lb sport-luxury GT car with 480bhp. Performance-wise, between it and the GT3, its 6-of-1, 1/2-dozen-of-the-other. But even if they are roughly equivalent in terms of performance, its hard to argue with the fact that the Turbo is easily the better all-rounder. The Porsche Turbo is a great all-rounder supercar/daily driver, and that is the car that the GT-R was benchmarked against. The debate is, does it succeed? And we don't know yet. Weight is only one performance consideration. The others are power, aerodynamics and traction. The weight problem can often be solved with power and traction. And in the cases I listed, it has been done. And the Miata is just not a car I'd consider as a daily driver. Porsche has the better idea with a fast car that can also pamper. Light works on the racetrack, but so does technology. Light and visceral doesn't work in a traffic jam, but technology does. |
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Replying to: bigmclargehuge (Mar 17, 2008 6:07 am) Why not? As an aside, I pretty just skipped over the whole argument over whose numbers are worth what. Unless you bring all the contenders to the same loop on the same day with the same driver with same number of practice laps measured the same way, they can't really be compared within a minute or so. |
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Replying to: bigmclargehuge (Mar 17, 2008 6:07 am) Though a Bentley is much heavier, it does have similar traction, and substantially more power. What holds it back from performance is weight. So weight is a significant factor. Yes but for how long. A lap, even around the Nurburgring is not a good indicator. That is like a sprinter; I'm asking to consider the car in a marathon. I'd want to know how a vehicle is going to do lap after lap after lap, considering wear on the tires, mpg and thus range, brake-wear, and engine cooling. Just basic physics tells me the lighter cars are going to be easier on these wear items. And though Mr. Ghosn doesn't have to worry about the costs, as a potential owner I'd want to know those costs per mile, if you did drive it hard once in a while.
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Replying to: kernick (Mar 17, 2008 6:34 am) I'm in agreement with this too. All times are unofficial. I was only responding to skepticism about heavier cars' ability to make 1 fast lap. Well, those claims are just as legit as one for the lighter cars. My point was there is no point in arguing which Nordschlieffe times are legit and which ones aren't, we have to take them all at the word of the magazine publishing them. There are some who would prefer a ride that doesn't involve feeling every pebble in the road. The Elise, for example, is called comfortable by very few people. A Miata isn't exactly what I want to be in an accident with. The ride of the GT3 or the Z06 aren't very forgiving when you hit a pothole. Daily driver? Porsche Turbo please. Though a Bentley is much heavier, it does have similar traction, and substantially more power. What holds it back from performance is weight. So weight is a significant factor. Thanks Captain Obvious. How the heck is a Bentley a good reference for the GT-R? Of course weight is a significant factor, but so is traction, and the Bentley doesn't have enough. There are some cars that do. Now a really fast 4200lb car is the AWD Bugatti Veyron. That has the type of traction and downforce necessary to keep 1000hp and 4200lbs from breaking loose. Expensive, but defies physics with engineering. Yes but for how long. A lap, even around the Nurburgring is not a good indicator. That is like a sprinter; I'm asking to consider the car in a marathon. I'd want to know how a vehicle is going to do lap after lap after lap, considering wear on the tires, mpg and thus range, brake-wear, and engine cooling. Just basic physics tells me the lighter cars are going to be easier on these wear items. Basic physics actually doesn't tell you that much. Some of the lightest cars have some really bad economy, like rotary Mazdas. Wasn't it a V12 diesel Audi that recently won Le-Mans? That is certainly heavier than its competion, but with a heavier, more economical and reliable powerplant, it can stay the course lap-after-lap. So really, in multi-lap races, there is something to be said about going with an ultra-heavy diesel. I agree that multi-lap races are better indicators of... race-winning cars. But when are you going to get totally stock cars racing multiple laps with the same driver, same conditions, etc. etc. Its the same thing as the 1-lap argument. There is no such thing as an unbiased condition. |
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Replying to: bigmclargehuge (Mar 17, 2008 6:07 am)
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