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Automotive News & Views Are The Japanese Poised to Dethrone the 911 AND the Z06?
194 messages, Last post on Nov 24, 2008 at 12:05 PM
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Replying to: bigmclargehuge (Mar 10, 2008 7:01 am) And how about resale? Price a '94 911 versus a '94 VR4. Started out new maybe 50% more, now worth 3-5 times as much. That being said, I have higher hopes for the GT-R. I am just not ready to jump on the bandwagon before they even roll them out.
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Replying to: lemmer (Mar 10, 2008 7:46 am) Could it be that in 1992 the Corvette got the LT1 engine and got bumped up by 50hp? And that this 911 you speak of was modified with a lighter chassis? And you aren't really making any point with the resale values. There are still VR4s in good condition that go for 2/3 of their original purchase price. That's because its still a good platform, can be tuned-to-race at 600hp by an expert, or makes a great collectors item. And what '911' are you talking about? A used 911 could be anything up to a 70K 993 GT2. So where exactly are the 300ZX and the Supra now? I'll tell you, they got replaced by more advanced sedans, Evo and STI, just like the VR4. Same market, same fate. The GT-R is what the 3000GT could have been with 10 years of improved technology. And guess what's currently mopping up the competition? I already said I expect Porsche and Corvette to make a comeback. But the GT-R is raising the bar again.
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Replying to: bigmclargehuge (Mar 10, 2008 8:35 am) Those and the 3000GT got caught in the mid-90s vise of escalating insurance on one side and the appreciating yen on the other side. The NSX was always a top-dollar, low-volume halo car, and it did exactly what Honda expected of it.
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Replying to: bumpy (Mar 10, 2008 9:17 am) I'm actually a big fan of that entire era of twin-turbo V6s. 300ZX, Supra, VR4. They could have all been great performers had they stuck around. Oh well, more stagetime for Nissan.
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Replying to: bigmclargehuge (Mar 10, 2008 9:33 am) Toyota pretty much gave up on the sports & GT market. The 300ZX got replaced (eventually) by the 350Z, a simpler non-turbo car. The RX-7 was replaced (eventually) by the far simpler non-turbo RX-8. See the minor trend going on here? Any chimp can run heavy boost on a crappy car and brag about its performance. It didn't work on Porsche 924s in the 70s, Renault Fuegos and Chrysler K cars in the '80s or various Mitsubishis in the '90s. I'll reiterate that I am not convinced this is happening with Nissan now. I am just a little skeptical.
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Replying to: lemmer (Mar 10, 2008 10:11 am) You have to admit, there were plenty of years that the Corvette was just 'plugging along.' I think that mid-70's to mid-90's Corvettes just should never have existed. Honestly, if they just let it die when the first emissions controls took it down to ~200hp I would have tipped my hat to them. And if they resurrected it in its current form, it would have been all the more exciting. But remember how the 3000GT's life story went. Introduced; put up a fight, competition fights back, 3000GT is updated, is epitomized in 1997-99 model year, and then die off before they become obsolete. Thats the exact same story for the Supra and the 300ZX. We'll always remember them as never having 'plugged along' for 20 years. I don't think Mitsu is in the right place right now to develop a supercar. Acura and Toyota might have something special for us. If the GT-R is not your cup of tea, we are only a few years from having more variety. If your comparison is right, we are at the very beginning of another 10-year battle between GT-R, NSX, Supra, Corvette, 911, and anyone else that wants to join the party. And the last model year of the 3000GT was significantly better than the first, so look for the 2019 GT-R to blow the doors off the current one. 10-year life span? Who cares, this is going to be bliss.
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Replying to: bigmclargehuge (Mar 10, 2008 10:45 am) In cars I consider great, quite often the NA version is considered equally fun to drive as compared to the turbo version. This can be argued with 300s, RX-7s, MR-2s, 911s and so on. I don't know what any of this means to the GT-R other than technology and all out performance isn't the end all be all when measuring the worth of sports & GT cars. That being said, I sure would love to lap a track or even just drive down the street in a GT-R.
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Replying to: lemmer (Mar 10, 2008 11:01 am) On-topic; I agree that I wish the GT-R was a much lighter car and didn't get reviews saying it is like a video game to drive. But it is what it is, and I'm glad it's here. If I got really bored with the GT-R, I'd start looking at what the aftermarket had to offer. Stiffer springs? Turbo intake and exhaust? Perhaps it could be made to feel more visceral. If it is so easy to drive at its current level, maybe take it up a notch until it feels challenging again (safety first though!) Now if they want to throw the Turbo or GT-3 engine in the Carrera, in the 70K range, I'd be all over those even if they are slightly slower. Thats still crazy fast and fun. But we all know thats not going to happen. |
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Replying to: bigmclargehuge (Mar 10, 2008 3:58 am) The only links you provided were links to Top Gear and Edmunds. Top Gear is infamous for their journalistic incompetence; Top Gear is for entertainment and entertainment only. Edmunds was given like 1 hour with the GT-R. As I stated before, the only Nurburgring run done in the GT-R was done by the GT-R engineer himself. Since this guy isn't letting the real automotive jopurnalists test the car on the Ring, we must ask ourselves the question, "What is he trying to hide from the automotive community?" "Yes, it is heavy, but they've done such a pheonominal job with the AWD system that it more than makes up for its weight. Currently, no Corvette or Porsche in production stands a chance on a track." The very reason why the Z06 doesn't have the steering feel or handling of the GT3 is because the Corvette has a mid-engine design with the engine up front. This front-weight bias has a numbing effect on the Z06's steering rack. That's the reason for its slight handling deficiency compared to the rear/mid-engined cars. The GT-R not only has its engine up front, but unlike the Corvette Z06, it's a true front-engine car (the Corvette is a mid-engine car with its engine rear of the front axle). Not only that, but there is over 700 more pounds on the front two tires compared to the lithe, agile Corvette, and nearly 1,000 pounds more than with the GT3. What does this mean? It means that while the added grip provided for by the AWD system will aid adhesion for a quick 0-60 run, steering feel and handling will suffer tremendously. Mark my words; after the fanfare dies down, the GT-R will be seen in last place when compared to greats like the Porsche GT3, Chevy Corvette Z06 and Ferrari F430. "Yes, the Z06 gets 0-60 in the high 2's with extra grip added. But those are rediculously skewed conditions." AWD on the track can be thought of as a "skewed condition." "There are no doubt conditions in which the GT-R could make up some time as well. Keep in mind, the C6 Z06 has been out for over a year and the GT-R isn't even in the states yet, and the real pros of drag racing haven't gotten a hold of it yet. And already journalists are getting better 0-60 times than they can in a Z06 on the first try." 0-60 times is a meaningless statistic. Better to the point is a car's 1/4-mile run. If drag racers want to mess around with a nearly 4,000 pound car that doesn't even have 500 horsepower, more to them.
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Replying to: pmc4 (Mar 10, 2008 2:03 pm) Edmunds had only an hour with the car. And with that hour, they crushed every Z06 journalistic record. Uhhh... that includes the 1/4-mile time. Why do you think its not skewed when the Corvette has been launched thousands of times by different drivers and the GT-R has been launched what? Twice? With enough practice, a good GT-R driver should put up high-2s as well. With 2x the traction, it can be heavier, and have less that 500hp, and still be faster. But a straight line isn't even where this car is best. Its handling is its best feature. AWD is a multi-talented design. It pulls the front end around corners while the rear end pushes. This particular AWD system can transfer torque to the outside wheels to push it around corners even faster. That means when your front-heavy 'Vette driver has to let off to keep from oversteering and smoking the tires, the GT-R driver can keep powering through. Your lithe, agile olympic athletes are trying to outrun a lion. Sure its heavier, but its faster and more agile at any clip. All of your analysis of where the weight is on this car is completely irrelevant. First, its a front-midship car, just like the Corvette. The engine is behind the front axle. The transaxle is in the rear, just like the Corvette. And it does not have 700 extra pounds on just the front wheels. You made that up. It doesn't really matter what you think about weight, AWD/RWD, power, etc. The facts are in. This car is even more impressive around corners than it is from 0-60. Times change. The GT3, Z06, and F430 are still great, but they are going to have to try harder. If you don't like it, don't buy it. But don't guess at what its handling capabilities are. And it was Fifth Gear, not Top gear. And you forgot to watch the Autoblog videos. There are 2 of them on the bottom of that page. |
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