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Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester

1581 messages,  Last post on May 10, 2010 at 6:35 AM

You are in the Mitsubishi Outlander Forum.

What is this discussion about? Mitsubishi Outlander, Subaru Forester, Car Comparisons, SUV

Messages Page 82 of 159

#806 of 1581 Re: Mitsu videos demonstrate S-AWC v. 4WD [fushigi] by chelentano

Nov 27, 2009 (3:59 pm)

Replying to: fushigi (Nov 20, 2009 6:51 am)
>> Being from the manufacturer it can be considered propaganda, but I find them interesting. As I wouldn't be off-roading (intentionally), I was mostly impressed with the ice video. That is applicable to road conditions that can happen on occasion here in Chicagoland. Ice:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b203wKwGrYA&feature=PlayList&p=50AC73FE9DBAA271&i- - - ndex=1
 
I am also from Chicago so I hear you talking about road condition. My Outlander was always very confident in heavy snow.
 
The ice video is amazing. You can tell that S-AVC torque vectoring capability is a whole another level of handling and safety. That Outlander is basically driving on two left wheels!
 
There are only few manufacturers building modern AWD systems based on torque vectoring:
 
  • Mitsubishi in 1997 introduced the AYC system with 2 rear wheel side-to-side torque control: 97 EVO4, Galant VR4. In 2002 it was improved with S-AYC on EVO 8.

  • Honda/Borg Warner, 2004, SH-AWD, 2 rear wheels, introduced on 05 Acura RL.

  • Mitsubishi, 2006, introduced S-AVC with all 4 wheel torque vectoring on 07 EVO X and now on Outlander GT.

  • Ricardo (UK), 2007, 2 rear wheel torque vectoring: Audi B8 S4.

  • ZF (Germany) / GKN Driveline (UK), 2008, offers both 2 and 4 wheel vectoring systems, for BMWs, Benz, Audi, VW, Porsche.

  • Haldex, 2008, 2 rear wheels, Opel Insignia, Cadillac SRX, Saab 9-4x, though some argue that Haldex system is not true a torque vectoring system.

    • .

    #807 of 1581 Re: Mitsubishi Outlander GT [p0926] by chelentano

    Nov 27, 2009 (4:47 pm)

    Replying to: p0926 (Nov 25, 2009 7:12 am)
    >> In my case, I was looking for something that was solidly built … competent handling. Which is why I went with the GLK
      
    GLK is nice little SUV, I drove it for a couple of days and currently drive ML350 myself. The Mercedes “build” quality could be better: the reliability is average. After your warranty expires, repairs will be very costly that’s part of the reason why I lease it. As for GLK “competent handling”, it’s average. GLK slalom results are far behind both Outlander XLS, and especially GT which beats in slalom every SUV from Mercedes, Acura, LR and Audi.
     .
     
    >> P.S. Actually, the GLK's second row seats do fold flat.
     
    Sounds cool, Frank, but why only the “second row”? According to Mitsu site Outlander has “fully-flat seating function (first and second row)”.

    #808 of 1581 Re: Mitsu videos demonstrate S-AWC v. 4WD [chelentano] by ateixeira

    Nov 27, 2009 (5:11 pm)

    Replying to: chelentano (Nov 27, 2009 3:59 pm)
    What I want to know, though, is how power is transfered side-to-side.
     
    Are they merely applying the brakes to one side, letting all the power go to the other? That would mean open differentials, with the ABS doing all the work. Or is it a mechanical differential, like Audi uses (Torsen style).
     
    I'm sure the system on the EVO is far more sophisticated than other Mitsus.
     
    There are plenty of videos on the 'net that show the Tribeca and Legacy GT climbing that ramp with rollers when just a single wheel has traction, and they manage. So Subaru has systems that can do it.
     
    And while the Forester doesn't get that more expensive AWD system, I don't think any system on a vehicle priced below $30 grand can. The GT is in Outback price territory, so at the same price level, both are capable of having one wheel move the vehicle forward, at least in theory.
     
    To be honest I'd like to see more vehicles be tested on that ramp. I've only seen BMW, Mercedes, and Subaru accomplish that. I'm sure there are others, but let's see 'em try.

    #809 of 1581 Re: Mitsubishi Outlander GT [20vcq] by chelentano

    Nov 27, 2009 (5:28 pm)

    Replying to: 20vcq (Nov 26, 2009 12:55 pm)
    >> the Subi handling is closer to BMW the Outlander feels like it has a single fixed axle in front scrubbing off forward motion rather than a well engineered front geometry (can be a real pain). Considering they build EVO this Outlander has a very poor suspension.
     
    That’s an odd and subjective statement. The objective facts are that Outlander XLS beats BMW X5 M, Acura Q5, MDX, LR2 in the recent Edmunds slalom handling test. In addition to the above cars the Outlander GT beats in slalom BMW X3, Benz AMG, RDX, and Cayenne Turbo. That’s speaking of “poor suspension”.
    .
     
    >> I have kept my Audi CQ for real driving though.
     
    That CQ from eighties? 0-60 in 9 seconds you call “real driving”?
    .
     
    >> And don't anyone try to compare Mitsu Outlander or Subi to ANY Audi - there is simply no comparison on any scale - short of towing.
     
    “Any scale”? On handling / slalom “scale” Outlander compares very well: it beats any Audi SUV. Outlander GT also has comparable Torque Vectoring AWD system which is developed in-house, while Audi system is purchased from ZF. Entertainment system is also very comparable, while Outlander reliability and warranty are much better.

    #810 of 1581 Torsens by ateixeira

    Nov 27, 2009 (7:11 pm)

    Audi has been using Torsens for decades, and they're very much capable of transfering torque side-to-side. Well before traction control was even a household name.
     
    I remember at one point some Audis had 3 Torsens (center, front diff, rear diff). They were capable of side to side torque transfer in the 80s.
     
    That Mitsu video was nice, as were the videos Subaru put out in 2005 when the Tribeca came out, but remember the Audi climbing that ski jump ramp?
     
    1986!
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHH-726_8lA
     
    Let's show some respect for the AWD pioneers.

    #811 of 1581 Re: Mitsubishi Outlander GT [chelentano] by p0926

    Nov 28, 2009 (3:35 pm)

    Replying to: chelentano (Nov 27, 2009 4:47 pm)
    Oh whoopee, the Outlander does well in one salolm test. Does it also have best in class braking? Acceleration? etc? I thought not
     
    Outlander has “fully-flat seating function (first and second row)”
     
    Why do I care if the driver's seat folds flat?
     
    -Frank

    #812 of 1581 Re: Mitsu videos demonstrate S-AWC v. 4WD [ateixeira] by chelentano

    Nov 28, 2009 (6:24 pm)

    Replying to: ateixeira (Nov 27, 2009 5:11 pm)
    >> What I want to know, though, is how power is transfered side-to-side. Are they merely applying the brakes to one side, letting all the power go to the other? That would mean open differentials, with the ABS doing all the work. Or is it a mechanical differential, like Audi uses (Torsen style).
     
    Actually, the Audi Quattro generation 4 is primarily utilizing brakes to transfer torque.
     
    The new generatioIn addition to open dif they use primarily active differential and electronic sensing for torque transfer.

    #813 of 1581 Re: Can we talk about the CARS???? [ateixeira] by chelentano

    Nov 28, 2009 (6:29 pm)

    Replying to: ateixeira (Nov 16, 2009 4:14 pm)
    >> Was the Endeavor discontinued? I test drove one a while back. That 3.8l was really torquey. They also set the engine nice and low in the engine bay. What happened to it?
     
    http://www.mitsubishicars.com/MMNA/jsp/endeavor/10/index.do?loc=en-us

    #814 of 1581 Re: Torsens [ateixeira] by chelentano

    Nov 28, 2009 (6:52 pm)

    Replying to: ateixeira (Nov 27, 2009 7:11 pm)
    >> Audi has been using Torsens for decades, and they're very much capable of transfering torque side-to-side...
     
    Torsen could only transfer torque to a side passively through an open differential, but not actively from wheel to wheel.
     
    ‘Open’ type differentials will transfer torque to the wheel offering least resistance. You can see the effect when one wheel of axle fitted with an ‘open’ diff is in mud and the other wheel is on tarmac. The wheel in the mud (low grip, least resistance) will just spin away while the one on the tarmac (high grip, high resistance) does nothing! You can also often see this process happening on track, especially on the front axle of normal road going FWD cars. When entering a corner the outside wheel becomes heavily loaded due to weight transfer while the wheel on the inside of the corner becomes unloaded. With an ‘open’ diff the inside wheel can spin as torque is transferred to the wheel offering the least resistance, which is the inside wheel. To stop this torque loss a Limited Slip Differential is often used. Standard LSD’s can only provide torque transfer in one direction proportional to the amount the ‘unloaded’ wheel is spinning.
     
    Mitsubishi’s Active Yaw Control system (part of S-AWC) builds on this principle. It adds electronic control of the torque transfer, and utilizes a type of active differential that helps to provide maximum traction to individual wheels according to sensed forces on the car (longitudinal and lateral g forces, steering, brakes and throttle position ) and the drivers input and it has several advantages:
     
    * It can help equalize the loading of all four tires and therefore provide the maximum cornering potential.
    * Understeer when cornering is reduced as a Yaw moment can be set-up by torque transfer at the rear wheels.
    * Sharp corners can be taken with smaller steering angles than normal due to a Yaw moment set-up by torque transfer at the rear wheels.
    * When driving or pulling away with the left and right wheels on surfaces with different friction levels the AYC can transfer torque to the wheel with the most grip.
     
    >> That Mitsu video was nice, as were the videos Subaru put out in 2005 when the Tribeca came out, but remember the Audi climbing that ski jump ramp? Let's show some respect for the AWD pioneers...
     
    The video is not relevant to the torque vectoring discussion and you taking that commercial too seriously. Climbing like that in snow is against all laws of nature. It’s a Hollywood setup with winter tires, snow spikes, robes and who knows what CGI.
     
    This video is a real thing, with climbing is in the end:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTs0MCQHrzE

    #815 of 1581 Re: Going Upscale [ateixeira] by chelentano

    Nov 28, 2009 (9:17 pm)

    Replying to: ateixeira (Nov 25, 2009 9:34 am)
    >> I think any mainstream brand has to be careful going upscale, because trying to compete with names like BMW and Mercedes may be futile even when the product is fantastic. Look at the VW Phaeton. There was nothing at all wrong with the vehicle, but it failed miserably. VW lost so much money , and the Golf V was delayed for years here in the USA, so it hurt their mainstream fleet.
     
    True, but at $70-110k they price "luxury" VW as Benz. In this case the upscale GT priced as Mitsubishi.

    Messages Page 82 of 159

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