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SUVs Mitsubishi Outlander Mitsubishi Outlander vs. Subaru Forester
804 messages, Last post on Nov 26, 2009 at 11:55 AM
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Replying to: chelentano (Feb 12, 2008 10:12 pm) Audi Quattro cannot do a max of 0/100 to 100/0. Audi uses a Torsen limited-slip center differential with a bias ratio of 2 to 1. By design, the limit of that system is 33/67 to 67/33. It's just plain wrong. Even if the bias ratio was 9 to 1, it would be 10/90 to 90/10. A Torsen is completely incapable of sending 100% to one axle. It's just impossible by design. Here is a good source from an engineering point of view: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/differential6.htm Also, the A3 doesn't use a Torsen at all. It's Golf-based so it uses a Haldex part-time system. Chrysler Group minivans don't even offer AWD. How old is that chart? Mama-mia. If it is indeed old enough to include AWD Chrysler vans, then they are also wrong about the Audi TT. Back then the Audi TT actually used VW's system of AWD, since it was a Golf-based system built by Haldex. That defaulted to a 100% FWD split, not 50/50. Lexus RX300? OK, that gives us an idea about how old the chart is. The RX330 replaced it, and the RX350 has since replaced that model. The last model year for the RX300 was 2003. Back then, the Audi TT did have a Haldex. So the "Audi all" part is definitely wrong. It's wrong even today - the A3's system is different than the A4's. The Hyundai Santa Fe's AWD was not full-time back then, either. In fact the traction control only functioned on the front axle, because it was an on-demand part-time system. Don't ask for a source because I didn't seriously shop the Sante Fe at the time. Volvo uses a Haldex that is not full-time, it also defaults to FWD, like the Audi TT. In fact they use the same supplier. Not surprisingly, Haldex is Swedish. Here's a little write-up about them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex Now, let's specifically look at what they say about Subaru's systems. First they list the 5 speed manual, call it 50/50 default and 0/100 max. The 50/50 part is actually correct. The 0/100 is not. Why? Very simple. There is a viscous coupling center differential. It's fluid-filled, and as the two axles move at different speeds, the fluid hardens and locks the two axles together. It's not a thinking system, it is purely mechanical. The 0/100 claim makes it seem rear-biased, but it's not biased at all - it just locks the axles at the same speed. In other words, if it can send 100% to the rear, it can send 100% to the front. The Times should have said 0/100 to 100/0. Personally, I owned one of those, VC equipped with 5 speed manual, 1998 model. It still uses the same system today. For MY2009, they will add traction and stability control to that model. How did it work in the snow, out in the real world? Great. Add too much gas in a turn and you could feel the system cycle power fore and aft. If you forced it to oversteer it would send all the power to the front wheels and it would pull me out of the skid. If power were 50/50 I'd be in the weeds because the rear wheels would still be spinning, but that didn't happen. It went to 100/0, i.e. all power to the front wheels, and pulled me safely out of the skid. It was very controllable and a hoot to drive. Next, the Active AWD system, found on the low-price automatic models. They say 90/10 default (which is correct) up to 50/50 max, which is incorrect. If the front axle was getting 50% of the power or more, the front wheels would have spun like crazy on that ramp. Remember it didn't spin at all. So the front axle was getting 0 power. It should be 100/0 to 0/100. Third, for the VTD system, 45/55 default is correct (for USA models, some JDM models send 62% to the rear axle by default). 50/50 max is incorrect. The VW Passat is also wrong, by the way. The latest model uses a Haldex and would not be full-time. The previous model used a Torsen so the limits were 67/33 to 33/67, i.e. same 2 to 1 bias ratio for the Torsen as Audi's. Any how, for Subaru, they have a bit of an AWD identity crisis, because they are marketing 4 different AWD systems (if you add the STI). They label them all under "Symmetrical AWD", but the truth is each system is different. Effective, but different. PS I've witnesssed, in person, a Benz 4Matic and a BMW successfully climb those ramps, and also watched a Lexus RX and an Audi A4 (torsen) fail. Yet another error by the Times because they say the Audi can climb one.
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Replying to: ateixeira (Feb 13, 2008 11:30 am) -mike Motorsports and Modifications Host |
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Replying to: ateixeira (Feb 13, 2008 11:30 am) Bob |
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Replying to: ateixeira (Feb 13, 2008 10:37 am) Yea, right! Bashing other manufacturers for “training” purposes. And then o-o-ps: the “traning” video shows up on youtube and who knows where else? Probably on computers screens of those Subaru sales people so they can show it off to car buyers. . >> I guess I don't see a motive for them to rig the test. Motive of car marketing: selling more cars. It’s that simple. . >> Plus, how would they even do that? I can see how they could use a FWD CR-V for it to fail, but not how the Forester could succeed by cheating - you clearly see the rollers and wheels moving. I don’t even want to go there: they’re so many ways to fix the “test”, especially in a movie. . >> That NY Times chart would be nice if it were accurate, but it's riddled with mistakes. Scary that they even published that. Well, when I see two contradicting opinions: one by the independent New York Times and the other one by biased Subaru enthusiast, which opinion do you think I should trust? The article is one of the best I’ve seen about the AWD systems, the guy definitely knows what he is talking about. In order to dismiss his article, you’d have some credentials. It’s also tough to be wrong for NY Times: they can get sued big Times! |
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Replying to: ateixeira (Feb 13, 2008 11:30 am) That’s what I am saying, not every person really qualified to dismiss expert opinion. I guess you probably just don’t know the complete picture. Even the http://wikicars.org/en/Quattro says about Quattro: “up to 100% of torque can be transferred to either axle”. It says it there twice. So the guy from NY Times is right. . >> Chrysler Group minivans don't even offer AWD. How old is that chart? Mama-mia. This 2002 or 2003 article is still newer then that “proof” of yours, which you posted to me in the other thread, which was dated by year 2000 and hosted on some noname site which even could not afford to buy a domain name. And since we primarily talking about the Subaru, the 2002 Subaru info is almost as good even for the year 2014. According to your own words, Subaru’s AWD system in 1998 was the same, as it’s today. [“I owned VC equipped with 5 speed manual, 1998 model. It still uses the same system today”] Anyway, Subaru is little slow on new technologies and on innovation. The brand new 2009 Forester uses same-old-same-old 4-speed auto tranny, which means they going to sell that car with dated AWD and dated tranny probably at least through the year 2014! Also Subaru is coming up this year first time ever with its first diesel engine: welcome to 21 century! . >> Now, let's specifically look at what they say about Subaru's systems. First they list the 5 speed manual, call it 50/50 default and 0/100 max. The 50/50 part is actually correct. The 0/100 is not. …Next, the Active AWD system, found on the low-price automatic models. They say 90/10 default (which is correct) up to 50/50 max, which is incorrect. If the front axle was getting 50% of the power or more, the front wheels would have spun like crazy on that ramp. Remember it didn't spin at all. So the front axle was getting 0 power. It should be 100/0 to 0/100. The NY Times guy is probably right again. In his other article “Introduction to All Wheel Drive systems” he actually calls this auto transmission Subaru’s AWD system “part time”: “Subaru has for many years been quietly offering radically different AWD systems in the same car, depending on the transmission choice. The manual transmission Legacies and Imprezas use a full time system that is split 50-50 with viscous couplings for limiting slip. In the automatic transmission versions, however, the system is a part time”. I mean really: 10% of rear axel torque you can barely call full-time. Is it really even 10% or he just rounded the number? I’d call that a fake full-time AWD. Again, there is too much marketing from Subaru, too little technology.
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Replying to: chelentano (Feb 14, 2008 3:16 pm) -mike Motorsports and Modifications Host
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Replying to: paisan (Feb 14, 2008 5:04 pm)
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Replying to: chelentano (Feb 15, 2008 7:38 am)  -mike Motorsports and Modifications Host
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Replying to: paisan (Feb 15, 2008 5:08 pm) That's the granddaddy Wikipedia started by individual volunteer contributors Nature is talking about, not the wikicars thing that was started by Internet Brands to tout their own material. |
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