Last post on Dec 09, 2013 at 6:08 AM
You are in the Toyota RAV4
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Toyota RAV4, SUV
#173 of 182 Re: Looks like a pattern! [chris379]
Nov 30, 2013 (1:26 pm)
for everyone's amusement. Here is Toyota's response to my concern. These guys are too much...
My Reply back....
You guys are too much!
As I do research, Failures of this engine are all over the internet. I filed my concern with NHTSA. I plan to follow up aggressively with them.
Kaizen??? Really! That is so ironic.
You have an entire generation of vehicles that are suddenly and unexpectedly failing? And in your response you have the arrogance to tout your “well-deserved reputation for quality and reliability”? Meanwhile my vehicle, that has been well maintained, dies at 63,000 miles? And now I see numerous reports of other sorry owners all experiencing the exact same issue?
My kids drive this car! It suddenly gave out while my son was driving. It is only a matter of time before your defect gets someone hurt, or worse killed.
From: Ask Toyota [mailto:toyota_carestoyota.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 4:05 PM
To: , Chris
Subject: Defective Engine [Incident: 131127-000154]
Recently you contacted Toyota. Below is a summary of your contact message and our response.
Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.
Response Via Email (Kym W.) 11/27/2013 01:05 PM
We apologize for your concern with engine in your 2007 RAV4.
Toyota hopes that our owners will have a trouble-free ownership experience and not need to worry about the quality or reliability of their vehicles as you have. Our vehicles have achieved a well-deserved reputation for quality and reliability and we know that there are high expectations for any Toyota vehicle purchased. Kaizen or constant improvement is in Toyota's DNA, and we are always improving our products based on comments such as yours.
According to our records, you contacted us by telephone today regarding the engine. At that time, we advised you that a Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) is a communication between Toyota and its dealerships that can serve as an update to Toyota publications, describe parts updates, or relay enhanced or new service procedures. Service procedures may explain diagnostic steps, implementation of recommended updates, or how to perform certain repairs. A TSB is not a recall or a Special Service Campaign. If the cost of a TSB service or repair is eligible for warranty coverage, it will be specified in the TSB, and requires that the vehicle is within the original warranty parameters and exhibiting the concerns referenced in the TSB.
Toyota makes all available TSBs accessible to the public by subscribing to our Technical Information System.
The warranty coverage for the engine is 5 years or 60,000 miles, whichever occurs first from the vehicle’s date of first use. Our records indicate that date is March 10, 2007. Once the vehicle is beyond these warranty parameters, the cost of repairs becomes the owner’s responsibility.
However, in the interest of customer satisfaction, we may review individual requests though the factory warranty has expired. We consider various factors, such as vehicle age and mileage in comparison to the manufacturer’s original warranty, the nature of the repair, inspection of the affected parts, and any dealer maintenance or repair history.
Toyota respectfully declines your request for out of warranty assistance with the engine.
Please be aware the information you have provided is used in combination with warranty claims and other customer contacts to track trends with our vehicles. If in the future a Special Service Campaign (SSC)/recall or warranty enhancement is issued that would cover your specific issue, and you have already made repairs to the vehicle, Toyota would review your repairs for reimbursement at that time.
Your email has been added to file #1311271287. If we can be of further assistance, please feel free to contact us.
Toyota Customer Experience
Customer By Web Form (Christopher ) 11/27/2013 12:32 PM
My mechanic just told me my engine was dead and needed complete replacement. Apparently it was low on oil. Estimated cost $7,000. Impossible is my reaction. A Toyota? 63,000 miles. I get regular oil changes. Do some resarch. Google Toyota Oil Consumption issue". This is a well reported issue. Toyota serviuce bulletin T-SB-0094-11 documents your own concern. But no one is told? Toyota needs to step in an compensate owners who have to pay the cost of an acknowledged defect.
#174 of 182 Re: Looks like a pattern! [chris379]
Dec 03, 2013 (6:53 am)
Here is a follow up letter I sent to NHTSA. I encourage everyone to invest in the cost of a stamp and do the same. To encourage the recall, the focus shouldn't be on the oil consumption issue. The focus needs to be the safety hazard that results from the sudden failure of the vehicle when the engine fails. In my case it happened while my son was driving. I see many other reports of this sudden and unexpected failure. Of course that is a safety issue. So we need to call attention to that concern. Write a letter!!!!
3 December 2013
Mr. Frank S. Borris II
Director, Office of Defects Investigations
Office of Enforcement
National Highway Traffic safety Administration
1200 New Jersey Ave, S.E.
Washington, D.C., 20590
Reference: NHTSA ID Number: 10554007
Toyota Technical Service Bulletin T-SB-0094-11 (attached)
Dear Mr. Borris:
This letter is to call your attention to an ongoing safety issue associated with several Toyota cars, and to specifically make a petition that an investigation be started. The makes and models are as detailed in their own (attached) Technical Service bulletin. I have already submitted my case, and that ID number is referenced above. However, I felt it was necessary to write you a letter to make sure you fully consider this concern. Specifically, I wanted to make sure that when you perform the trend analysis, that you consider all the combined complaints for the following makes and models that include the engine in question:
2007-2011 Camry HV
2006-2008 RAV 4
These vehicles all contain the same engine model that is the cause of this safety concern. When looked at collectively, you will see an alarming trend of vehicles that are subject to sudden and dramatic engine failure. The root cause is excessive oil consumption, leading to cars being driven with insufficient oil supply. But the issue isn’t merely about the oil consumption. It is about the resulting impact of the sudden engine failure. These failures frequently take place with no prior warning, as the oil pressure indicator light will typically come on after the damage has already been done. In my case, my son was driving at night when the engine suddenly stopped performing, leaving him with dramatically decreased acceleration. There was no prior warning. He had to pull to the side of the road, and wave traffic past. Fortunately he wasn’t involved in an accident. But he was certainly put at risk because of this issue. As you look at the other complaints, you will see many similar stories.
Your NHTSA web-site defines a safety defect as a problem that exists in a motor vehicle or item of motor vehicle equipment that:
• poses a risk to motor vehicle safety, and
• may exist in a group of vehicles of the same design or manufacture, or items of equipment of the same type and manufacture.
I would submit that this problem precisely meets these criteria. By its own admission, and as corroborated by numerous complaints, Toyota has unleashed an entire generation of vehicles that are all subject, without any prior warning, to sudden and dramatic failure. Considering the number of these vehicles on the road today, it is only a matter of time before this defect directly contributes to an accident, an injury, or worse.
Of additional concern is Toyota’s response to this issue. They are obviously aware of the problem. Their own technical service bulletin describes the engine, right down to the applicable serial numbers impacted. Despite this knowledge, Toyota is making absolutely no attempts to communicate this problem to car owners. It defies logic how a company can knowingly have a serious engine defect, resulting in numerous engine failures, but fail to make any effort to communicate the issue? I have to wait until the car basically gives out on my son as he is driving home late at night from work? My high school daughter used this car to drive to school every day. With my 2 other younger children as passengers! What if this happened to them during morning rush hour traffic? I purchased a Toyota specifically because of their reputation for reliability and quality. I was obviously mistaken.
In conclusion I hope you will seriously consider this petition, and open an investigation into this matter. By copy of this letter I am also informing my congressman, Jim Gerlach, Pennsylvania 6th Congressional District, as I am also reaching out to his office for help in this matter. Thank you for your consideration.
#175 of 182 Re: Looks like a pattern! [chris379]
Dec 03, 2013 (9:15 am)
Your story is all too familiar. It was my daughter that was left stranded at night when our engine failed.
I wrote a letter to NHTSA back when I had my problem to help log complaints. I also wrote to JD Power because Toyota cares what they say.
I received the same response from the Toyota Executive Office about being out of warranty and went as far as going to small claims court against the dealer. Needless to say, I lost that battle.
I wrote a letter directly to the owner of Toyota in Japan (Mr. Akio Toyoda); paraphrasing "The Toyota Way" philosophy only to be directed back to the Customer Service group that refused to help me in Torrance California.
Its big business versus the average Joe and I hope all who are experiencing this problem take their concerns to the highest level.
As long as people keep buying these products, the manufacturer will claim ignorance. They made me feel like I did something wrong with maintaining my vehicle.
I keep trying to put it past me but then I see a message like yours and get all fired up again.
Dec 03, 2013 (5:42 pm)
Class action sounds good! My story: I have a 2007 Rav4, purchased new in British Columbia. I bought it for the reasons other do: reliability and safety! Until about 6 months ago I was still in love with this car and hoped to drive it into the ground.......in another 10 years or so........however, I was driving one night in the spring when suddenly my oil sensor light comes on! I pull into a gas station asap and after fiddling with the dipstick (with a 6 year old Toyota, I had never bothered to learn where the thing was, 'cause burning oil was the furthest possibility from my mind). There, at the bottom of the stick, was a thin black smear. I topped right up and booked an oil change shortly afterward. Now, it's been 7000 km (sorry, Canadian here!) since my last service, and the oil was reading at the "Fill line".........apparently from my research, this is considered within limits as far as Toyota is concerned (EXCUSE ME!?). I live rurally, a day's travel from a dealership and have no interest in going through their whole monitoring scheme, only to find that I'm consuming within their limits or not and need my engine pulled apart. I now feel that I no longer have a reliable vehicle. I can't take it on long road trips, and I have to check the oil every month or so and fill it as required.......I thought I'd given that up when I was 25 and traded in my 12 year old Mazda GLC, which at over 300000 KM burned less oil than this $40000 Toyota. So, if anyone is starting a class action, consider me in. I would also love to hear advice from anyone else in similar circumstances. My plan at this point is to keep checking and adding, try to do a cleanse of some kind (sounds like there are some products that can maybe loosen those sticky rings? Anyone have experience with that?), and start test driving Nissans! We currently own two Toyotas, but they will be our last after this experience (Hubby's chat with Toyota Canada was a complete waste of time). Another question: once it's burning oil, how quickly does the amount of oil used begin to rise? Am I looking at a litre every 500 Km in a year or so?
#177 of 182 new engine for RAV?
Dec 07, 2013 (5:04 pm)
We also have a 2007 RAV4 - had the oil changed every 5k km and the engine lasted till almost 200,000km when it started using quite a bit of oil but the usage is not consistent. Sometimes we have to add 1/2 liter every fill-up and other times we get a couple of fills before it needs oil. It is currently parked till we decide what to do with it. This may sound like a lot of km, but my 04 CRV has almost the same number of Km with same oil change interval and it burns about 1/2 liter between changes. We sold our last CRV with 430,000 km on it and it burned 1 liter between changes.
Anyway, 4 cylinder RAV engines before and after this 06/07 generation seem solid, so because of the quality issues associated with this generation engine, we are thinking of switching the engine out for an older or newer one. Has anyone on this forum tried this and if so, how much did it cost?
#178 of 182 Re: new engine for RAV? [cmacrae]
by Stever@Edmunds HOST
Dec 07, 2013 (6:22 pm)
You can add a liter of oil every other tank and go a long time before you equal the cost of an engine swap or rebuild.
#179 of 182 Re: new engine for RAV? [Stever@Edmunds]
Dec 08, 2013 (4:27 pm)
How frequently do you have to add oil before it starts burning blue smoke? There is nothing noticeable coming from the tailpipe with the amount of oil it is currently using. I am also interested in the cleaning procedure that the post above mentioned. Our local garage is going to try a clean on our RAV when it comes out of the garage next spring. I am not overly optimistic that it will change anything, but it is worth a try.
#180 of 182 Re: new engine for RAV? [cmacrae]
by Stever@Edmunds HOST
Dec 08, 2013 (4:33 pm)
I hate "using" oil but most manufacturers will say it's normal - to a point. That point is sometimes as low as one quart per 1,000 miles (sorry, I'm not up on my metric volumes). But it sounds like you aren't too far off that mark.
What's your mechanic planning on using - something like SeaFoam?
#181 of 182 Re: new engine for RAV? [Stever@Edmunds]
Dec 09, 2013 (5:25 am)
It almost sounds like the HOST works for Toyota. Adding oil is the best way to avoid a failed engine, only if you know your vehicle is consuming it at this unreasonable rate (1 quart/1200 miles). If you do the math, this rate will leave your engine virtually dry with a 5000 mile interval. No one designs an engine that behaves this way on purpose. It's a design flaw that is corrected in the TSB plain and simple.
As for the blue smoke, I never observed any on my RAV before the engine died. The blow through is subtle enough that it goes unnoticed.
The engine cleansing with not help but if it makes you feel better, go for it.
#182 of 182 Re: new engine for RAV? [ravnmad]
by Stever@Edmunds HOST
Dec 09, 2013 (6:08 am)
No, had a great '82 Tercel but driving a Nissan and a Subaru currently (and I work for Edmunds). The Subaru "uses" a little oil, the Nissan never does.
But I typically check my oil every time I put gas in my cars and if you look at most any manufacturer, they'll have a "consumption rate" that they will consider normal.
Here's an example - GMC Yukon XL Normal Oil Usage?
And another. (Honda)
The point is that most dealers and manufacturers aren't going to do much for you if all your engine is doing is consuming a quart every 1,000 miles because they'll produce some document that says such use is "normal".