Last post on Nov 18, 2013 at 9:27 AM
You are in the Buick Enclave
What is this discussion about?
Buick Enclave, SUV
#82 of 185 Re: Water Leaks in 2012 Buick Enclave [missiontxguy]
May 01, 2012 (7:46 am)
I have a Saturn Outlook with the same issues-check out "Sunroof leak on my Saturn Outlook" in the Edmund Forum. The Enclave, Arcadia's and Saturn Outlook all have the water leaks from the sunroof that cause disastrous electrical outcomes. I wanted to share this information with y'all about the "Secret Warranties." This is why I believe GM has reps. monitoring these sites.
Secret warranties are a multi-billion consumer abuse. Every auto company makes mistakes in building cars. Whether they are design defects that affect every car or whether they are manufacturing defects which affect only some cars, they must be repaired. The only question is who pays for the manufacturers' mistakes, the manufacturer or the consumer. Although the auto manufacturer often establishes a secret warranty to pay for the repair, all too often it is the consumer who pays for the manufacturer's mistake because the consumer never finds out about the secret warranty. That's wrong and the Center for Auto Safety wants to change it.
In a 1987 report the Center for Auto Safety (CAS) created national headlines by identifying 10 exemplary secret warranties covering 30 million vehicles and $3 billion in repair costs. Yet this is but the tip of the iceberg for we estimate that at any one time over 500 secret warranties exist for all auto companies. According to a Toyota whistleblower who provided a complete list in May 1988, Toyota alone had 41 secret warranties at that time.
By exposing secret warranties, CAS forces manufacturers to pay for their mistakes and creates a strong incentive for them to build better cars in the future. once secret warranties are disclosed, consumers will save hundreds, if not thousands, in repair bills on their personal cars. Spurred on by CAS exposes, state legislatures are moving to pass secret warranty disclosure laws that will protect consumers. Until then, consumers must rely on the strategies suggested in our book, Little Secrets of the Auto Industry, to discover and use secret warranties to pay for repairs in their vehicles.
What is a secret warranty?
Auto companies hate the term secret warranties. They call them policy adjustments, good will programs, service campaigns or extended warranties . But whatever they are called, they are a longstanding industry practice. When a car company has a major defect that occurs after its written warranty expires, it establishes an adjustment policy to pay for repairs rather than deal with many thousands, if not millions, of complaints on a case by case basis. But the auto company communicates the policy only to regional offices and not even always to its dealers. The auto manufacturers never notify the consumer; so only the consumer who complains loudly enough gets covered by the secret warranty. Other consumers end up bearing the costs of the manufacturer's mistakes.
Examples of Secret Warranties
CAS has documented case after case of secret warranties since our founding in 1970. one of the first and most famous was Ford's J-67 Limited Service Program which covered rust on 12 million 1969-72 cars and trucks. In this case a bulletin which went out only to Ford regional offices stated, "This is a limited service program without dealership notification and should be administered on an individual complaint basis." Under this program, Ford would pay up to 100% to repair rust and paint damage on its vehicles even if it cost over a $1000.
CAS has uncovered secret warranties on all auto companies with little differences between them. A 1972 Mazda secret warranty bulletin doubled the coverage for rotary engine damage but cautioned, "Since this is a temporary program which may be terminated at [any] time, owners are not to be informed of the extended coverage." Honda had secret warranties on head gaskets and rusting fenders in the mid-1970's; Chrysler had rusting fenders on Volares and Aspens in the late 1970's; GM had the transmission secret warranty caused by a ban on sperm whale oil as a lubricant; Peugeot and Subaru both covered defective head gaskets; and VW covered valve stem seals.
Secret warranties soared after 1980 when the federal government dropped all efforts to ban them. GM had a 5 year/50,000 mile secret warranty covering repair of defective rack and pinion power steering systems on all 16 million of its 1981-88 front wheel drive cars. Toyota covered pulsating brakes on its 1983-86 Camry in a $100 million secret warranty. Ford never told owners of its 1985-92 F-series pickups that America's most popular truck had peeling paint because Ford skipped the primer layer. According to Nissan documents provided to CAS by a whistleblower in 1990, Nissan had at one time up to 48 secret warranties covering various cars and trucks.
There is no doubt that auto manufacturers presently have many other secret warranties. However, assessing how widespread secret warranty programs are is difficult because these programs, by definition, are not intended for public disclosure. Since CAS began exposing secret warranties more widely in the 1980's, the auto makers having gotten better at keeping them secret. Even CAS can no longer get lists of secret warranties to disclose. one Honda insider told CAS that Honda has only one secret warranty book for each of its regions. The book is chained to a desk. Every page has the region's number superimposed on it so that any photo of a book page would show the region from which it came.
But it is known that the regulatory climate has been very favorable to the automakers since 1980. Furthermore, secret warranties are viewed by the automakers as an effective tool to maintain good customer relations. Loyal customers and customers that complain loudly and persistently are rewarded. Other consumers get saddled with repair costs caused by the manufacturers' mistakes.
No Uniform Law Requires Secret Warranty Disclosure
No federal law requires auto companies to disclose secret warranties. In the late 1970's, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sought to litigate individual secret warranties against each auto company beginning with piston scuffing and cracked blocks in 1976-78 Fords. The FTC settled its case by requiring Ford to notify and directly compensate owners according to the secret warranty policy and to notify all future owners until the consent agreement expired eight years later in 1988. Although the FTC later filed similar complaints and actions against GM, VW, Honda, and Chrysler in the late 1970's, it dropped the requirement of secret warranty notification. In 1981 after the change of Administrations, the Commission completely dropped its efforts to expose secret warranties.
Where a secret warranty exists, consumers could ban together to file a class action against the manufacturer for an unfair trade practice but this is a major effort which is rarely used and is a poor substitute for a disclosure law. In 1989, CAS helped the Center for Public I
#83 of 185 Re: Water Leaks in 2012 Buick Enclave [nancy1960]
May 01, 2012 (7:48 am)
CON'T OF THE SECRET WARRANTIES:
Con't of Secret Warranty:
Where a secret warranty exists, consumers could ban together to file a class action against the manufacturer for an unfair trade practice but this is a major effort which is rarely used and is a poor substitute for a disclosure law. In 1989, CAS helped the Center for Public Interest Law successfully sue Toyota over a secret warranty that covered up to $1800 in repair costs for pulsating brakes in over 400,000 1983-87 Camrys. To settle CAS' class action Toyota agreed to 1) notify all present and past owners, 2) reimburse consumers for all repair expenses already incurred, and repair all cars with this defect that had not yet been repaired. CAS estimates the total cost to Toyota to be over $100 million, most of which would have been borne by consumers but for CAS' action.
State Secret Warranty Laws
In order to protect consumers from undisclosed defects, five states (California, Connecticut, Maryland, Virginia, and Wisconsin) have enacted secret warranty laws and other states are considering secret warranty legislation. The state secret warranty laws already enacted require manufacturers to disclose their "warranty adjustment" programs by giving direct notice of any warranty extension to affected owners, including information about the terms of the warranty, and provision for reimbursement to consumers who already have paid for the covered repair. Until all states enact and enforce secret warranty laws, consumers will be kept in the dark about secret warranties.
How to Find a Secret Warranty
Until secret warranty disclosure laws become the law of the land, the only way to find out about secret warranties is just plain hard work. First, one checks the technical service bulletins for your vehicle type and model year. Service bulletins are published by the manufacturer and sent to dealerships to assist them in diagnosing and repairing problems on the vehicles they service. The existence of a service bulletin does not conclusively prove the auto company has a secret warranty but it does show a defect or problem exists for which the manufacturer has had to develop a repair. Service bulletins can be difficult to decipher, but it is well worth the effort. Finding the right bulletin could save you thousands of dollars in repair costs. The right bulletin is the one that tells the dealer how to diagnose and fix the problem. It also will authorize the dealer to make the repairs at the manufacturer's expense even though the defect is no longer covered by the manufacturer's express warranty.
The trouble is that manufacturers often do not put the terms authorizing free repair in the technical service bulletins but give this information only to their factory representatives so that both the dealer and consumer are kept in the dark. Watch for code words in bulletins such as "check for availability of good will assistance." Companies often use such language to get around the triggering requirements for customer notification in states that have secret warranty disclosure laws.
Secret warranties are often revealed when owners of vehicles of the same type and age are treated differently by the dealer or manufacturer. If some owners get their vehicles repaired at no cost or at a discount whereas other owners of the same vehicle do not, it is possible that a secret warranty covers the defect involved. However, it is also possible that the dealer or manufacturer has decided on a case-by-case basis to reimburse a relatively small number of owners to retain their goodwill and not as part of a warranty adjustment program. To constitute a secret warranty, the difference in treatment of customers must be based on a corporate policy to reimburse owners that is communicated to regional offices and usually also to dealers but that is not communicated to consumers.
How to Use a Secret Warranty
After determining that your vehicle is covered by a secret warranty, the next step is to take advantage of your knowledge. The best way to do this is to take the service bulletin that proves the existence of the secret warranty with you when you go to your dealer to get the defect repaired. Without the bulletin, you will have a much more difficult time getting the dealer to repair your vehicle free of charge. Even if the dealer refuses to recognize the existence of the secret warranty [he might not know that the secret warranty exists] or if your vehicle is beyond the period of coverage of the secret warranty, he still may repair your vehicle at no expense as part of a goodwill adjustment.
If the dealer claims your vehicle is not covered by a secret warranty and refuses to give you a goodwill adjustment, your next step is to pursue your claim directly with the manufacturer. You should do this for two reasons. First, unlike dealers, the manufacturer will know always know if a certain defect in one of its own vehicles is covered by a secret warranty. Second, every manufacturer has a system to handle consumer complaints, which should be followed even though it may not work in most cases. Complaint handling mechanisms outside the manufacturer's system (e.g. arbitration) require exhaustion of all remedies that the manufacturer provides.
Contact the manufacturer's division (also called regional, district or zone) office in your area. The locations and correct names of district offices and the complaint procedures are often spelled out in the owner's manual. If the manufacturer's representative refuses to see you, contact the regional office or the manufacturer's owner relations office, often located in Detroit for domestic manufacturers, California for Japanese and Asian manufacturers, and New Jersey for European manufacturers.
If the manufacturer refuses to extend the secret warranty to your vehicle (perhaps because your car is beyond the time or mileage requirements of the secret warranty), do not give up. Manufacturers only reimburse those owners who complain loudly and persistently; those who put off complaining, or who never complain at all, must pay for the manufacturer's mistakes.
The next step is to make enough noise outside the manufacturer's complaint handling system to get results. A strong commitment is necessary to successfully use this procedure, because you will not get results unless you are willing to persistently follow up letters and phone calls.
Complain in writing to the manufacturer's Chairman of the Board or President with copies of that letter to others. Set forth the defect covered by the secret warranty clearly and precisely within the letter and refer to the collected documentation of the car's troubles and your attempts to have the car repaired "within the system."
#84 of 185 Re: Water Leaks in 2012 Buick Enclave [missiontxguy]
May 02, 2012 (6:23 am)
Good morning Mark,
How did everything turn out with this dealership visit?
GM Customer Service
#85 of 185 My Buick Enclave leaks also
May 21, 2012 (8:11 am)
My 2008 Enclave started leaking last summer (2010). Water is sloshing around under the dashboard and when you make a left hand turn it pours on to the passenger floor. We brought it in to the dealer last summer and they "fixed" it twice. Once pulling off the windshield and re-sealing it and they also replaced the motor for the fan that was sitting in a bunch of water. It appeared to be fine for the winter months except we now have a whistling sound coming through the dash when you are on the highway. this spring our AC failed and we were told it was the compressor. We took it in right away (our warranty expires this week!!) and they replaced the AC compressor and said they fixed the leak and the whistling. The leak is not back yet...but I am worried about the damage to the AC again (having the fans sitting in water) and I am not convinced that he really "fixed" what is wrong. Plus - the whistling is still there. Can I get some help??
#86 of 185 Re: My Buick Enclave leaks also [buickleaks]
May 21, 2012 (9:17 am)
I'm sorry that the couple of trips you made into the dealership for the leak didn't resolve the issue completely. If we can look into this further with you, please send the following information to us at socialmediagm.com: your name/Edmunds username, phone and address, the last 8 of your VIN and current mileage, the name of your dealership and any details you can recall (date, amount paid, etc.) about those two previous visits.
We look forward to hearing from you,
GM Customer Service
#87 of 185 2012 Water Leaks?
May 21, 2012 (9:38 am)
Have read about massive water leak problems, particularly with the 2008 model. I'm thinking about buying a new 2012 model. Does the "water leak" problem still exist on the 2012's after all these years? This would be a deal breaker for me.
#88 of 185 Re: Buick Enclave Leaks When It Rains [mickicd]
Jun 20, 2012 (10:07 am)
i bought brand new car in sept. 2008 and now it broke down the whole engine felt apart the millage is 102000 and the bucik don't want to fixed it when it there fault the car over heated after 1 year of having the car. i should just sell it than since than it one problem after another i had the car leaked and it was fixed twice and still it leaks, and now the engine broke down because it was not fixed the first time. and Buick don't want to fixed it now.
No wonder they will bankrupt soon.
DON'T EVER BUY BUICK
#89 of 185 Re: Buick Enclave Leaks When It Rains [kbirnbach]
Jun 21, 2012 (2:17 pm)
Have you worked with Customer Assistance to set up a case yet? If so, would you be able to send that number to us (71-**********) at socialmediagm.com? Alternatively, you can send the last 8 digits of your VIN. We would like to check into the case for you.
GM Customer Service
#90 of 185 Re: 2012 Water Leaks? [larryd9]
Jun 24, 2012 (4:55 pm)
Did you get any feedback on the 2012 from anyone. Whether the problem has been fixed. I now have mine at the dealership, 2008 model with 38,000 miles. This is the third trip and now have mold in electrical system. Dealership is telling me the problems/kinks have been worked out since 2011. Has anyone been able to confirm the 2011 or 2012 model issues have been corrected. This is also a deal breaker for me on any upgrade offer they make. Any feedaback will be appreciate as I will make a decision this week or start looking at somethign other than GM. Looks like it may become another government owned bureaucrcy with poor products and services. Very unsatisified and product is untrustworthy, including dealers if I can't get confirmaiton this has been resolved.
#91 of 185 Re: 2012 Water Leaks? [flywillie]
Jun 24, 2012 (8:13 pm)
Wow, I wonder if I too have mold. How can you tell?