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Hybrid Vehicles Electric Vehicles Lithium Ion Battery Packs For Electric Vehicles
34 messages, Last post on Nov 12, 2008 at 5:47 PM
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Replying to: galvang (Jan 14, 2008 10:29 pm) A cycle represents a full charge after a full discharge. If you only discharge the batteries 50% every day then 500 days of recharging would be 250 cycles. We've all heard of the much publicized limitations regarding Li-ion batteries. I've got to believe that the engineers at Mercedes, Honda, GM, et al, have at least as much insight into these matters as the typical poster on Edmunds. Honda will be using Li-ion batteries in its FCX. GM will be using it in the fuel cell Equinox. Mercedes will be fielding it in their S class hybrid next year. I'm not a chemical or material engineer but common sense tells me that these multi-billion dollar companies would not be putting these battery packs in their vehicles if they didn't have a high level of confidence.
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Replying to: tpe (Mar 04, 2008 4:53 pm) Lithium Ion have been around for awhile but for this new type of battery both the auto MFGr and the battery MFGr would have to prove that they are reliable and safe. They look great on paper but the proof is in the real world application in this case autos.
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Replying to: galvang (Mar 20, 2008 3:42 pm) UP TO 1000 cycles. That is best case it sounds like to me. How will they give a 10 year warranty on a battery like that? It is not likely you will totally discharge the battery very often. At least hopefully not as you would be dead in the water. Toyota has overcome some of the problems with deep discharging by only charging to 80% and not allowing the battery to go below 20%. In an EV that would cut your range by 40%.
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Replying to: galvang (Mar 20, 2008 3:42 pm) I think you might have left out a zero and meant 10,000 cycles. I've seen that claim also from Altair Nanotechnologies. 1000 cycles would not represent an improvement over what NiMH batteries are capable of. Also it probably wouldn't be adequate for an EV unless the cost was comparable to lead acid. I believe that GM has set a target of 3,000 cycles out of whoever they choose to supply their battery packs. The problem with Altairnano's batteries is that their energy density isn't really any better than NiMH. Meaning that for a given range the battery pack is not going to weigh any less. However Altairnano's batteries have a much greater power density, which will allow them to be recharged/discharged much faster. My personal opinion is that Altairnano's batteries are perfect for a PHEV application where you are only going for around 40 miles of all electric range. I think that for a pure EV with much over 100 mile range they would end up being too heavy. For instance if you were to use Altairnano's batteries in the Tesla Roadster you would add about 800 lbs to a battery pack that already weighs ~900 lbs.
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Replying to: tpe (Mar 24, 2008 10:33 am) http://www.a123systems.com/#/applications/phev/pchart2/ As for the energy density of the A123 Nano-phosphates, there are just as good or even better than standard Lithium ions. They operate at much higher voltage than NiMH almost 3 times as much with the same capacity. Plus these batteries can be fast charged in a matter of minutes. With the higher energy density and the ability to pull high short term electrical loads like with hybrid, it's perfect for a PHEV or a pure EV. In fact GM has is working with them to develop the batts for their EV the Volt. I like these new batt technology. http://www.a123systems.com/#/applications/phev/
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Replying to: gagrice (Mar 22, 2008 5:24 pm) You are right if the discharge is 100% then the range is increased but at the same time reducing the battery's cycle life. And vice versa the opposite occurs. It's a trade off. The physics is there, now if the auto MFGrs can apply this very same technology to large SUVs and increase the mileage significantly, that would be a feat. More than likely it would initially be expensive but as time goes on I'm sure it will be competitive with a gas engine. |
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Replying to: galvang (Mar 25, 2008 10:39 pm)
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Replying to: tpe (Mar 26, 2008 9:24 am) Yes, I familiar with the test scheme. Probably accelerated voltage, high and cold ambient temperatures, multi-cycle 100% depth charges and discharges. I hope all goes well. Now the next item for them to complete is when these batteries go into high volume production they need insure consistant good quality. Motorola's six sigma quality process maybe a good quality model. Good luck GM.
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Replying to: galvang (Mar 26, 2008 7:11 pm) GM tests Volt batteries General Motors' engineers say they have developed a new computer algorithm to accelerate durability testing of the lithium-ion batteries needed for its plug-in electric Volt to be produced GM says the new algorithm compresses the equivalent of 10 years of battery use into the tight timeframe required to get the Volt into production by late 2010. Battery testing and load cycling runs around the clock in the company's test labs in Michigan and Germany. "The challenge is predicting 10 years of battery life with just over two years of testing time," said Frank Weber, global vehicle chief engineer of the Chevrolet Volt and E-Flex systems. Actual test vehicles will have to be used to account for the many in-use variables that cannot be accounted for in lab testing. The Volt's T-shaped battery pack will fit into the centre tunnel and under the rear seats, and will become an integral part of the vehicle's structure.
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Replying to: galvang (Apr 12, 2008 10:42 pm) I just pulled one of my laptops out for a trip and the Li-Ion battery I replaced a year ago is completely dead. Cannot charge it at all. I would not touch a car with Li-Ion batteries till I see them in full use for 10 years with NO problems. Right now I hate the technology and wish I could get a NiMH replacement for this Inspiron 4100. The last one just a year ago was $169.99 now that same piece of crap Sony Li-Ion battery is $249.99. So I have a laptop that can only be used where I have AC power. You don't have that luxury with an Electric car. PS My old Inspiron 7000 with a NiMH battery is still working after 7 years. Could be the reason Toyota is steering clear of Li-Ion. The Tesla has 6800 of the same piece of crap cells that are in my defunct Dell Laptop. I hope they get videos of George Clooney stuck by the road with his broke down Tesla after a couple months of use.
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