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Geo Metro Tire and Wheel Questions

30 messages,  Last post on Nov 10, 2009 at 3:11 PM

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#20 of 30 Re: Geo Metro lug nuts [beltwaybandit] by geoman2 Jun 07, 2009 (11:06 am)
Replying to: beltwaybandit (Jun 02, 2009 9:05 am) No,you are the wrong one butch 22.You should read my answer alittle more closely.First of all I did NOT say anything about convertibles,you did.I said hatchback which means "Non Convertibles".The hatchbacks from 91-94 did NOT have 13"rims,only 12 inch rims.And even if some models did,this is NOT the issue.I'm speaking primarily about "my" or most other standard Metro's that only have the 12"tires and smaller lugs.Your second big mistake is not reading my answer correctly again.You Will have problems based upon the smaller diameter lugs that DO come with the 12 inch set up on the "standard" 91-94 Geo Metro hatchback,because of the slightly larger lug hole in any of the 13"wheels that correctly match the lug pattern.The additional"play"between the hole in the 13" rim and the 12"lug may not seem like much,but the tightness of fit is what is needed for a safer mount,even if it "appears" that you can tighten down heavy on the 13"rim with the smaller lug.All of the 13 inch wheels I remember correctly that I tried out matched the Geo's lug pattern absolutely perfectly but the "bottom"of the lug either "fit"inside the 13"wheel hole or just barely touched the ouside of the 13"rim hole.If the 12"lugs become worn on the edges,you'll have even a larger safety problem.Your 3rd mistake is that I did NOT deny that that you can mount 13 inch wheels on a 12 inch set up but with all the work involved with removing the hubs and drums,drilling and more,its really not worth the effort,especially if,like most people,they cannot do the work themselves and have to go to the shop.The expense involved,well,i'm sure most people will agree,would be quite large indeed!Much cheaper,better and faster to obtain 12 inch tires through the internet as I mentioned...and yes,they are still very readably available from several USA sources and Canadian internet sources. Again,perhaps you "may"have found one specific 13"wheel that fits a more precise smaller lug diameter on the Standard Non LSI 91-94 Geo Metro Hatchback,but I seriously doubt that,since i have tried several.The larger hole diameter in the 13"wheel does pose a safety threat when mounted on the smaller lugs on my 92 Geo Metro standard Hatchback,even if its just a few hairs wider.I have discussed this issue with several professional mechanics not only at dealerships,but at various other shops and salvage yards.Yes,modifications can be made,but your conversion work was "unnecessary"if you can still find 12"tires as easy as pebbles in the road!Now,once 12 inch tires are no longer available,well then I personally would consider all the modifications you mentioned,but I just purchased 4 12" tires through the Internet 2 months ago at 38 dollars apiece and 45 dollars to ship all 4 tires.Thats only 197.00 total to arrive at my doorstep.If I go to the shop and have all that modification work done,including the fact that most shops will not allow you to go to a junk yard and bring them used parts to save money,well then,the cost will be outrageously high to do this.Bottom line....be smart,and purchase the 12"tires online not only for safety,but to save money and hard work.If you make a mistake and do not drill perfectly in the modifications,thats another problem as well... Enough said! Replies to this message: geoman2 (Jun 07, 2009 12:03 pm) geoman2 (Jun 07, 2009 1:33 pm) geoman2 (Jun 07, 2009 3:05 pm) and 1 more...
#21 of 30 Re: Geo Metro lug nuts [geoman2] by geoman2 Jun 07, 2009 (12:03 pm)
Replying to: geoman2 (Jun 07, 2009 11:06 am) Is it beltwaymechanic or butch 22?Well,I don't care,this message and the above one applies to all! Also....to my above message.If you could somehow find a wider lug with a "precise"inner thread match to fit the smaller 12" studs...well then that still won't work that great because you still have the stud diameter problem "below" the lug and into the 13"rim hole itself!I doubt that you could find a unique lug anyway safe or unsafe that would do this anyway,since my sources are infinitely beyond any autostore computer which I found out makes plently of mistakes!We could talk about the "correct"stater replacement on the distributor when you need another one vs other type of cars,even beyond the Geo(but this is another issue).The computer,even at the dealer will give you an "exact" replacement part....but this is MANY TIMES FLAWED!Many dealership computers as well as Autozone and others do not have the "correct"updates from the databases that show "intermittant problems"associated with staters.These intermittant problems show up on the update bullitin boards sent to many dealerships,but their own computers are not always updated.For example,I had a 95 ford escort a while back.The stater went out of commission.The dealer put back in a 95 stater again,(thats stater,not a starter!)which was a mistake,because 3 months later,the stater went out of commission again!They should have read the update bullitin board showing problems with the 95 stater and put in a stater from 1997,which fit exacly and had no "intermittant"problems.Motto???Do not trust any parts store or dealership even if they say this will fit or will work,even a 13"wheel for example!!!!!I I also was given a thermostat once by autozone and national and advance auto parts that showed the supposed perfect replacement for my 92 Geo Metro.Well...the computer in all 3 stores was INCORRECT!!!!!My model requires a black rubberized gasket that fits around the "edge"of the thermostat,not on the bottom of the thermostat,so they were all wrong!I had to go to the dealer and spend 30 dollars for the correct thermostat!Now,getting back to the wheel problems....I had a friend 3 years ago that simply placed what appeared to be a well fitting 13" rim on his 91 Geo metro hatchback,until he hit a few potholes,did a couple of fast swings around some sharp corners in the road and his wheel began to wobble violently.He found out that there was NOTHING wrong in his suspension,he thought he broke something!No,it was the lug vs hole problem again.Now maybe if he was a nice old lady that drove around 25 MPH all the time and drove on all smooth roads,he would not have ever noticed a problem,but then we are not all old ladies driving 25 MPH are we?The day I trust slapping on a 13"rim simply based upon the fact that the "holes"line up perfectly or because some auto parts store says its "ok"is the day I may very well lose control of that tire and go under a semi crushing me to a thin piece of scrap metal.Think what you want my friend,but i have personally observed otherwise and contrary to what you have said. Replies to this message: geoman2 (Jun 07, 2009 1:33 pm) geoman2 (Jun 07, 2009 3:05 pm) beltwaybandit (Jun 08, 2009 4:57 am)
#23 of 30 Re: Geo Metro lug nuts [geoman2] by geoman2 Jun 07, 2009 (1:33 pm)
Replying to: geoman2 (Jun 07, 2009 12:03 pm) so Butch22...Don't tell me about my mistakes,I have not made any but you have made plenty! 1.Not finding 12"tires on the internet or even looking on the internet...(not too smart on your part!) 2.Doing all those unnecessary conversions and all that work...Not too smart! 3.trying to tell me about the "convertibles"having 13 inch tires when the discussion was about 91-94 hatchbacks...NOT convertibles which are still 12",not 13"!Very unsmart! 4.believing that parts stores will give you the correct fit simply because their computer says so...triply unsmart!!! 5.and not admitting or correcting your mistakes...quadruple unsmart!!!!!!!!! Replies to this message: geoman2 (Jun 07, 2009 3:05 pm) beltwaybandit (Jun 08, 2009 4:57 am)
#24 of 30 Re: Geo Metro lug nuts [geoman2] by geoman2 Jun 07, 2009 (3:05 pm)
Replying to: geoman2 (Jun 07, 2009 1:33 pm) also,butch22,I have tried the susuki wheels on my 92 Geo metro hatchback,I believe the salvage yard originally said that the 95 13" wheels would fit.Although i'm not sure of the year anymore.Well,those wheels,...the same ones i'm sure YOU are talking about,did fit and matched up "almost"perfectly!The key was "almost!" Again,the holes matched to the 92 Geo's studs,but as I told you before...there was too much play between the stud and the hole in the 13" susuki wheel making it somewhat unsafe.So,i'm calling you a liar to your face! And this you can add to all your other mistakes! Replies to this message: beltwaybandit (Jun 08, 2009 4:57 am)
#25 of 30 Re: Geo Metro lug nuts [geoman2] by beltwaybandit Jun 08, 2009 (4:57 am)
Replying to: geoman2 (Jun 07, 2009 3:05 pm) My dear Geoman2. I will list the specific steps and part numbers to clarify what I was trying to explain in my earlier post. If you could read the entire thing I am sure you will see that I have considered how to completely and safely accomplish the proper swap of 13 inch geo wheels on to a geo that came standard with the 12 inch wheels. . . . The 13 inch wheels that come standard on a Geo convertible will (and do) properly and exactly fit a geo hatchback that came with the 12 inch wheels IF YOU DO THE FOLLOWING.   Step 1 - Remove the front hubs and the rear drums. Step 2 - Remove the studs. Some people call wheel studs "lugs." (Press or knock them out.) Step 3 - Purchase the studs that fit the 13 inch wheels - There are two different lengths to fit the front and the rear. AutoZone.com lists the following parts - Front- Dorman/wheel stud part number 610-334.1 and Rear- Dorman/Wheel stud part number 610.336.1. These are the correct diameter and length to properly fit the geo convertible 13 inch wheels. They are size M12-1.25 thread. Step 4 - carefully drill the holes in the hubs and drums to a larger size to accept the larger wheel studs. If you don't have the correct equipment like a drill press and proper size drill bits then go to a machine shop and have the holes enlarged professionally. Step 5 - press the larger studs into the holes in the hubs and drums. Step 6 - Purchase the correct wheel nuts. (Some people call them "lug nuts.") Autozone.com lists them as Dorman/Wheel Nut part number 611.064.1 (same size front and rear.) Step 7 - reinstall the front hubs and rear drums. Step 8 - install the 13 inch geo convertible wheels on the new larger studs on the geo hatchback.   If the person considering this swap would rather get the parts from NAPA look for part numbers 6411534, 6413158 and 6413144.   This works. It is 100% as safe as using the production 12 inch wheels and I can assure you that it can be done. I have done this job. I have a 90 geo hatchback in my garage with the properly fitted 13 inch convertible wheels.   Why you feel compelled to call me a liar to my face is sad and puzzling. I offer this information based on experience and the facts can be verified. I am not simply throwing out unsubstantiated opinions.
#26 of 30 Easy by pf_flyer HOST Jun 08, 2009 (12:17 pm)
Let's back off the personal edge on thing before they get too sharp. Thanks!
#28 of 30 SOLVED!!! by colt1911 Aug 27, 2009 (6:51 pm)
Wow what a thread !!! This thread helped me a little in my research, so now I'm BACK, to give back!! Let me hit a few points first.   /quote geoman2 Forget the larger lugs.You won't find them with the substandard mm inside diameter and larger outside diameter...does NOT exist! /quote   First, the the studs ar NOT SUBSTANDARD! 10x1.25 is a standard metric size. 10mm is common bolt size, 1.25mm is metric 'fine' thread. the word 'substandard is misleading and wrong!   Second, Larger lugs DO exist. I have been a mechanic for 25 years (school trained), and there is NO safety issue with them. I will detail below.   BTW, I am glad you are happy with your 145/80/12's. I wasnt...   Moving on. During the process of converting to a 13" wheel, I compiled some information to help others along. Here it is:   OEM Info ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wheel = 12" x 4" Tire = 145/80-12 Bolt pattern = 4 x 4.5" (114.3 mm) Fender well clearance 597mm   ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Car Year Pattern Stud Size Center Bore Offset ---------------------------------------------------------------------- METRO 89-97 4X114.3 10mmX1.25 59.6 35   EXCEL 86-94 4X114.3 12mmX1.5 67.1 46   New Wheel ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 13" x 4.5" Steel Wheel SILVER; 12 SLOT Model: Hyundai Excel 86-94   (as you can see I used Hyundai excel rims because I got them for $10 ea, and all I had to do was paint them, surely many more will fit)   Most compatiable sizes (the 155's were exact replacements I bought a while back, shown for comparison purposes only, they were Douglas brand from Walmart, they dont carry them anymore BTW) (the numbers on the far left mean nothing, it was just a list) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Size total Radius +/- clearance ea side   OEM 145/80/R12 537mm (21.1) +0mm 30mm   Mine 155/75/R12 537mm (21.1) +0mm 30mm   3 185/60/R13 552mm (21.7) +15mm 22.5mm Sumitomo HTR 200 (High Performance Summer) 46.00 Price: $184.00 for 4 - Shipping $40.90 ============= $224.90 5 195/60/R13 564mm (22.2) +27mm 16.5mm Sumitomo HTR 200 (High Performance Summer) 49.00 Price: $196.00 for 4 - Shipping $42.18 ============= $238.18 8 205/60/R13 576mm (22.7) +39mm 10.5mm Sumitomo HTR 200 (High Performance Summer) 54.00 Price: $216.00 for 4 - Shipping $46.02 ============= $262.02 9 215/50/R13 546mm (21.5) +9mm 25.5mm Sumitomo HTR 200 (High Performance Summer) 52.00 Price: $208.00 for 4 - Shipping $43.46 ============= $251.46 ----------------------------------------------------------------------   These tires were all from tirerack. You can look around if you want... Other sizes may fit, but hitting the fenderwells is questionable, since they had to be shipped, I erred on the side of caution. BTW, I went with the 215/50/13's. They do not rub fenderwells or ANYWHERE!!   Anyway, heres more:   Stock Tire - 145/80R12 215/50R13 Section Width: 5.70 in 145 mm Section Width: 8.46 in 215 mm Rim Diameter: 12 in 304.8 mm Rim Diameter: 13 in 330.2 mm Rim Width Range: 4 - 4.5 in Rim Width Range: 6 - 7.5 in Overall Diameter: 21.13 in 536.70 mm Overall Diameter: 21.46 in 545.08 mm Sidewall Height: 4.56 in 115.82 mm Sidewall Height: 4.23 in 107.44 mm Radius: 10.56 in 268.22 mm Radius: 10.73 in 272.54 mm Circumference: 66.38 in 1686.0 mm Circumference: 67.41 in 1712.2 mm Revs per Mile: 984.3 Revs per Mile: 969.2 Actual Speed: 60 mph 100 km/h Speedometer1: 59.0 mph 98.4 km/h   Speedometer Difference: 1.557% too slow Diameter Difference: 1.54%   As you can see, the rim size is too small for the tires I selected, they work fine, but honestly, if I had it to do over again I would have gone with the 195's. I almost did, but I LOVE WIDE TIRES!! The rolling resistance is kind of high too, and that has hurt my gas milage, but at 57 mpg, I had some to spare   I used a javascript program on a website to calculate alot of this. I will post the link here, but I dont know how they are about links on this website. I really joined up here to make this post so hopefully other people wont have to do so much research like I did.   http://www.rims-n-tires.com/info_specs.jsp?   (this site seems to be down sometimes, maybe my security settings, but often I had to try back later to get there)   Anyway, on to the lugs. The brand is Gorilla Automotive, the style is acorn, and they are also a 'bulge seat' style, which means simply, they are one size larger in physical form only. The hex size is listed as 3/4 inch, which is a direct cross to 19mm (close enough ok?), the same hex size you would get if you had 12mm studs!!! No need to change studs the seat is .5mm larger than the hex drive, more than enough to cover the hole.   Here is a link to their catalog: http://daliracing.com/v666-5/download/Gorilla_lock_nuts.pdf   or google 'Gorilla_lock_nuts.pdf'   The part number is 41118 (bulk package), 41117 (clamshell package) 41117B (bag package.   This is a link to where I bought mine, I got 20 for about $23 after shipping. If your buying custom stuff that has to be shipped, DO GET EXTRAS, 20+ they were only 0.82 cents each (before shipping) I couldnt find these in retail stores around town either.   http://www.brandsport.com/grla-41118.html   They fit very well, a little long, but they will STILL allow wheel covers no problem. If you dont want chrome like me, you can acid bath them first, and they will be a beautiful black chrome!! ( I have yet to do this myself)   Anyway, I can post pics if anyone wants, I have dozens of pictures already taken (point me to an online picture dump). I also have pics of the washers I made before the lugs arrived. This is NOT safe in my humble AND professional opinion, even though they sell expensive lug washers. I got 3/8 zinc flat washers, lift wheel off ground, center wheel with two opposing lugs, put washer on stud, use nut and torque wrench to make flat washer conical. Then repeat for other lugs. This is real dangerous IMO because people 'forget'. I was checking the torque on my lugs every 10-15 miles for about 5 days!!! What a pain!! Its really unsafe, and I dont recommend it unless:   1 Its very temporary 2 You never forget anything 2 You check the proper torques (with a torque wrench) very often (95-100ft lbs)   If you leave them like this, your damn wheel WILL fall of sometime you are least expecting, and maybe kill someone, so use the PROPER LUGS!! I only include this information for completeness.   It's been a great experience even for a seasoned mechanic, but I hope I have saved someone a little research. Please be safe, and change the studs, or buy the oversized nuts.   questions/comments?   Colt
#29 of 30 Re: Geo Metro lug nuts [butch22] by lilbull Sep 21, 2009 (8:05 am)
Replying to: butch22 (Oct 01, 2008 1:51 am) The person that recommended this site: Offset Lugs for the shoulder or acorn seated lugs is spot on. Please be safe and enjoy a few new shiney parts by investing in the proper upgrade lugs.   You'll enjoy the better ride and handling w/ the 13's over stock 12's, but remember your speedo is going to be off by 5 to 7mph so do 5mph under what it reads.

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