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Help me understand the value of the hybrid.

38 messages,  Last post on Sep 11, 2008 at 7:55 PM

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What is this discussion about? Toyota Prius, Honda Civic, Car Comparisons, Fuel Efficiency (MPG), Coupe, Hatchback

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#6 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by garv214 Dec 14, 2007 (1:53 pm)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 14, 2007 6:11 am) I have found that from a financial payback perspective a hybrid is generally a losing proposition. When the current version of the Prius started becoming such a popular car, I questioned it from a financial perspective, because I was not seeing a positive financial return. The tough part of this analysis are the number of unknowns, the price of gas, the longevity of battery packs, actual MPG vs EPA MPG, resale value after 10 years, the amount of tax credit that can be applied...   I won't even go into the time value of money assumptions...   If you really want to compare apples to apples, then you should compare the Honda Civic with a Honda Civic Hybrid equipped the way you like and take into account the tax advantages in your payback calculations.   I think it comes down to this... People who buy hybrids are willing to risk/forego the financial benefits versus purchasing a conventional car in order to emit fewer emissions. You simply need to ask yourself if you are willing to trade some financial benefit for fewer emissions.
#7 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by emgr Dec 14, 2007 (7:00 pm)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 14, 2007 6:11 am) It has also been shown that a hybrid components parts don't wear as quickly as a similar non-hybrid, brakes, rotors, no starter to go bad, simpler transmission. So over the long haul you save additional dollars in less repair and replacement cost. That can up to a few thousand more depending on how long you keep the car. I believe the Prius brakes alone are good for 100,000 miles. That's at leastt 5 times longer than a conventional car.
#8 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by bob104 Dec 14, 2007 (7:22 pm)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 13, 2007 8:41 am) http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/buyingleasing/most-fuelefficient-cars-20- 6/index.htm?resultPageIndex=1&resultIndex=1&searchTerm=most%20fuel%20efficient%2- 0cars   Above is a url for some very realistic and detailed figures from Consumer Report for the topmost efficient cars. You can also play with the Edmunds.com TCO (True Cost to Own) figures and make an iffy estimate of your own costs. Lots of variables: how quickly will gasoline got to $7/gallon? How will the future higher price of gasoline impact resale value of Civic, Fit or Yaris compared to Prius? How much will a new battery cost eventually, with massive speculation in metals a new feature of investing? How much hwy driving do I do? What is the cost of amortizing the $5,000-7,000 more that the Prius/civic hybrid costs   I own a Prius, but I think you might be quite happy with a Fit or a Yaris, at least financially. I've played with the figures many times and I think a Fit or a Yaris is cheaper to own than a Prius until gasoline reaches at least $7/gallon.   In term of enviromental impacts I conjecture it's a wash because there is so much more material, some of it very toxic to mine and smelt, in a Prius than in a Yaris/Fit. About 20% of GHG emissions over the lifetime and lifecyle of a 20mpg Taurus, for example, comes from its manufacture.   Remember, apples to apples, a hybrid gets slightly worse mpg at highway speed (no braking) than the same car made as a non-hybrid.   I'd get a 1200cc Fit or Yaris . . . . if they'd only make them for the US market. Replies to this message: railroadjames (Dec 14, 2007 8:21 pm)
#9 of 38 Re: Help me understand the BIG values of the hybrid. [bob104] by railroadjames Dec 14, 2007 (8:21 pm)
Replying to: bob104 (Dec 14, 2007 7:22 pm) I have some good reasons to endorse the Prius. 1st: 78,000 miles in almost 4 yrs. 2nd: Over 100 Prius TAXI drivers highly endorse the heavily tried & true hybrid. 3rd: Give this some thought ...brakes seem to last forever and the tranny is simply amazing (smooth w/ no jerks) 4th: Don't worry about the battery. It's warranteed for ten yrs and I've yet to come across a dudd yet. 5th & lastly: Toyota quality is outstanding. Nuff said.   P.S. Resale values are as good as they get. (try to find a used one. people keep them and don't want to part with them) Don't forget...you're "greening" the world!!
#10 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by stevedebi Dec 18, 2007 (11:46 am)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 13, 2007 8:41 am) " I drive 92+ miles 5 days a week 52 weeks a year. "   The hybrid is most efficient in stop-and-go traffic conditions. On the highway the battery system cannot impact MPG as much. For your situation I think that a Yaris or Fit would be great (either will approach or pass 40 MPG). Either one is under 19K, and the mechanical components are much simpler.   At those mileages you are going to go through your 100K or 150K (depends on the state) hybrid warranty pretty fast.
#11 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by etroup Dec 26, 2007 (12:13 pm)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 13, 2007 8:41 am) Your math is entirely correct. There is no econonomic advantage. Plus, the hybrid batteries and other components are only good for a reported 100k. There is a major expense at around 100k to replace the very expensive batteries. So if you look at TCO beyond 100k miles of usage and include expected maintenance costs as well, the number may well come out even worse.   This may be why in a lease calculation, the residual values for a hybrid appear very low resulting in higher than expected lease payments. Replies to this message: pathstar1 (Dec 26, 2007 1:36 pm) kenlw (Aug 28, 2008 10:47 am) kdhspyder (Aug 28, 2008 3:31 pm) carbot (Mar 20, 2008 8:25 pm) janakiram (Jul 08, 2008 9:16 am)
#12 of 38 Civic Hybrid by thegraduate Dec 26, 2007 (12:39 pm)
May I ask why you are overlooking the Civic Hybrid?   $22,600, comes with lots of standard equipment (Automatic Climate Control, Steering-Wheel Mounted Audio Controls, PW, PL, etc...45MPG Hwy estimated.   Seems like it would be a good middle-of-the-road choice for you. Lower initial cost, still gets great mileage.
#13 of 38 Civic Hybrid by thegraduate Dec 26, 2007 (12:38 pm)
May I ask why you are overlooking the Civic Hybrid?   $22,600, comes with lots of standard equipment (Automatic Climate Control, Steering-Wheel Mounted Audio Controls, PW, PL, etc...45MPG Hwy estimated.   Seems like it would be a good middle-of-the-road choice for you. Lower initial cost, still gets great mileage.
#14 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [etroup] by pathstar1 Dec 26, 2007 (1:36 pm)
Replying to: etroup (Dec 26, 2007 12:13 pm) You keep posting that the batteries will wear out around 100K mi. Please advise where you got this information.   The information -I've- seen indicates they usually last much longer than that. The original Prius (Prius Classic - 2000 to 2003 in the US) -may- have battery problems sooner than the current car. Toyota has improved the batteries a lot in the current model. One problem estimating battery life is the current model car has only been here for 4 years max. Very few owners put more than 25,000 mi on a car each year.   Now, I'm not going to gloss over battery failures. There have been somewhere around 10 to 15 in the current model (2004 to 2008) according to Toyota US, last I heard (this past summer). All were warranty replacements. Considering there are well over a million cells "on the road" that is a small failure rate indeed! There are 168 cells in each Prius. If one fails the battery will have problems. Amazing that so few have problems, isn't it! For example, there is a Camry Hybrid with over 336,137 mi on the original batteries. There is a Prius taxi in Vancouver BC with over 300,000 km on the original batteries.   Perhaps you should rephrase that to "I think the batteries may only last XXX mi".   The Prius is still at the top of the list re most economical fuel wise. That is NOT the only or even a good reason to buy one. It is also one of the lowest emitters of pollutants. It is very well designed body wise, being very adaptable to carrying a wide variety of loads. It is also rated as the most reliable family sedan by Consumer Reports.   If it falls in your economic ability to buy one, I see no reason to shy away. I love mine.   I bought it because, in order of importance to me: 1. Body design is amazing - outside the size of a "small car", inside the size of a "midsize car". Extremely adaptable, and well thought out! 2. Technology. It's an amazing piece of work. 3. Fuel efficiency. You may or may not ever recover the "hybrid premium", but as nobody can foresee the future, that point will be debated ad nausium! Replies to this message: kenlw (Aug 28, 2008 10:47 am) kdhspyder (Aug 28, 2008 3:31 pm)
#15 of 38 Hybrids don't make sense. by g_allen Mar 20, 2008 (1:48 pm)
quoted from railroadjames......."Don't forget...you're 'greening' the world!!"   Hate to sound like a pessimist, but there is little that hybrids do to "green" the world. Considering the environmental damage that occurs during the making and disposal of hybrid batteries (this info. is widely available on the Web and other places) one really has to question how much they are really helping dear Mother Earth.   People buy hybrids for MPGs. But, after one does his/her due diligence and realizes there is virtually no benefit from a cost perspective when comparing price of entry into a hybrid and return of fuel savings, they realize it doesn't make any sense. It can take many, many years to recoup the investment depending on how many miles one drives each year.   In a nutshell, hybrids present nearly zero value to a consumer at this point. Of course, this will likely change as more and more hybrids are manufactured and prices begin falling. Additionally, rising gas prices could begin to create measurable value as well. However, until engineers can design eco-friendly batteries, hybrids will never truly be "green" and will continue their own destructive nature to the environment. Replies to this message: railroadjames (Mar 20, 2008 6:45 pm) carbot (Mar 20, 2008 8:27 pm)

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