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Help me understand the value of the hybrid.

38 messages,  Last post on Sep 11, 2008 at 7:55 PM

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#15 of 38 Hybrids don't make sense. by g_allen Mar 20, 2008 (1:48 pm)
quoted from railroadjames......."Don't forget...you're 'greening' the world!!"   Hate to sound like a pessimist, but there is little that hybrids do to "green" the world. Considering the environmental damage that occurs during the making and disposal of hybrid batteries (this info. is widely available on the Web and other places) one really has to question how much they are really helping dear Mother Earth.   People buy hybrids for MPGs. But, after one does his/her due diligence and realizes there is virtually no benefit from a cost perspective when comparing price of entry into a hybrid and return of fuel savings, they realize it doesn't make any sense. It can take many, many years to recoup the investment depending on how many miles one drives each year.   In a nutshell, hybrids present nearly zero value to a consumer at this point. Of course, this will likely change as more and more hybrids are manufactured and prices begin falling. Additionally, rising gas prices could begin to create measurable value as well. However, until engineers can design eco-friendly batteries, hybrids will never truly be "green" and will continue their own destructive nature to the environment. Replies to this message: railroadjames (Mar 20, 2008 6:45 pm) carbot (Mar 20, 2008 8:27 pm)
#16 of 38 Re: Hybrids "DO" make sense. by railroadjames Mar 20, 2008 (6:45 pm)
Replying to: g_allen (Mar 20, 2008 1:48 pm) Bottom line is...you can critisize the battery sys but they are durable, dependable and they give the ice engine alot of rest in various traffic situations. Can't tell you how many times I've been stuck in traffic (in electric mode) while a 9mpg "Hummer" is gulping gas going nowhere.75K and 4 plus yrs brings me to one more fact .....almost$11,000.00 in savings in those 4 yrs compared to my last V6 S.U.V. that got 14-16 mpg's on average. The '04 Prius averaged 46-48 overall. (gas $3.20 per gal). Oh!! Lets not forget resale value. Bought mine for $19,995.00 plus s&h. Today (onaverage book is 16-17K). See any used for sale? Very rare. Find any other car worth as much. One more thing Motor Trend...Car & Driver...Consumers Report. ..All praise the Prius. They must be pretty smart I'd say. So ...Where's the "zero value" you threw into the equation? Lastly...I feel pretty smart as to the continued body style since it's basically the same for 6 yrs. Must be a keeper by those kind of numbers. Warrantee ain't bad either. I've owned over 50 cars (I'm 63yrs young) and had some great and some not so great. The Prius ranks #1....nuff said. Replies to this message: carbot (Mar 20, 2008 8:27 pm)
#17 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [etroup] by carbot Mar 20, 2008 (8:25 pm)
Replying to: etroup (Dec 26, 2007 12:13 pm) Where are you getting your "reported 100,000 miles" figure. I have nine friends with Prius' and none of them has ever had any problems, much less battery problems. My '04 Prius has over 188,000, and no hint of a battery problem. It is a true "battery", not one cell. You can replace one cell if needed. I don't know of anyone who has had to do even that. With 188,000 plus on the original brakes, and absolutely no other problems, this is the most cost effective car I have ever owned, not to mention comfortable, economical and eco-friendly. Consumer Reports retracted their blanket statement that hybrids are not cost effective, for the Prius only, The Prius resale value is much higher than they initially expected. If you don't have any experience with owning a Prius, you should not play the expert and give advice about them. Replies to this message: janakiram (Jul 08, 2008 9:16 am)
#18 of 38 Re: Hybrids "DO" make sense. [railroadjames] by carbot Mar 20, 2008 (8:27 pm)
Replying to: railroadjames (Mar 20, 2008 6:45 pm) Amen Brother
#20 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [carbot] by janakiram Jul 08, 2008 (9:16 am)
Replying to: carbot (Mar 20, 2008 8:25 pm) I recently met a doctor in Kentucky who commutes 90 miles a day, did 160,000 miles on his 2002 Prius and traded it for a 2006 and already has over 50,000 miles on it. The only compliant is the fabric covers on the console and door arm rests gets dirty in every day use - my friend recommends leather covers sold on E-bay at $24 for the center comnsole and $16 for each arm rest. He lives in the coal country - his headlight cracked when hit by a piece of coal falling off a truck - new headlights cost $800 a pair. He recommends headlight shields, also available on E-bay at $18 a pair. By the way I just did a 2,000 mile trip on my Prius and averaged 43 MPG at 75 MPH, full loaded with three adults plus gear. The car felt solid and confident in heavy downpours, but traction is marginal on wet unsurfaced pavement.
#21 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [pathstar1] by kenlw Aug 28, 2008 (10:47 am)
Replying to: pathstar1 (Dec 26, 2007 1:36 pm) battery life:   Most INDUSTRY estimates (it is still too early to have enough real data, altho I have started seeing some) are that most hybrid batteries will last ON AVERAGE 150k miles. Meaning some will last longer, some won't make it that far. Toyota warrants theirs to 100k. That's less than 3 years for me.   And there's a Chevy truck out there with over 1 million miles on it. That's what we call anecdotal data, not useful for looking at reality.   As an engineer who has set warranty on numerous products, I will tell you that the 100k figure was carefully calculated by Toyota to be a bit shy of where they will start losing a lot of $$ to warranty replacement batteries. That number also tells me that most folks should get 100k easily without any problem. After that, Toyota wants no part of them. And in most cases, you will get to pay a not-small fee to dispose of those depleted batteries, recycled or not. And unless they really take off more than they have, you won't have any after-market support (read: less expensive) source for new batteries: Toyota/Honda will have you by the short ones.   If you only keep the hybrid 3 years and stay well under 100k, you should be fine, go for it. If however, you tend to keep cars forever the battery issue means that a hybrid won't last as long as a standard gasoline vehicle, or will reach the financial black hole sooner. On average, of course, stuff happens. imho, hybrids are a great vehicle for low mileage leasees.   The painful reality is that a gasoline /diesel powered Honda or Toyota is easily good for over 200-300k and still has value. A hybrid over 100k is going to take a HUGE resale hit due to the real (or perceived) need to replace those batteries soon at a cost of several thousand smackers.   I would (and have) bought Toyotas/Hondas with around 100k miles on them. But I wouldn't touch a hybrid at 100k with a 10 ft pole....   In reality, most engineers consider the hybrid a decent interim short-term solution, and that diesels will probably win out in the long run, and pure electric in the very, very distant future. They are just much simpler. Replies to this message: kdhspyder (Aug 28, 2008 3:31 pm)
#22 of 38 Here is what I think... by klas Aug 28, 2008 (11:53 am)
I don't see any value for myself getting a hybrid and people still buying it thinking that they will be saving money them, but most don't realize that instead of benefiting themselves they benefit everyone else around. So what values does buying a hybrid bring...    ... Cheaper prices on regular gas cars    ... Support improvements of hybrid and/or electric technology    ... Better for environment    Benefits for yourself... None! Replies to this message: oldcoach (Aug 28, 2008 1:05 pm) kdhspyder (Aug 28, 2008 3:39 pm)
#23 of 38 Re: Here is what I think... [klas] by oldcoach Aug 28, 2008 (1:05 pm)
Replying to: klas (Aug 28, 2008 11:53 am) Maybe You should check the MPG hybrids get, and also check the resale value. Maybe this will give you an idea why people want hybrids.
#24 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [kenlw] by kdhspyder Aug 28, 2008 (3:31 pm)
Replying to: kenlw (Aug 28, 2008 10:47 am) As an engineer who has set warranty on numerous products, I will tell you that the 100k figure was carefully calculated by Toyota to be a bit shy of where they will start losing a lot of $$ to warranty replacement batteries. That number also tells me that most folks should get 100k easily without any problem. After that, Toyota wants no part of them. And in most cases, you will get to pay a not-small fee to dispose of those depleted batteries, recycled or not. And unless they really take off more than they have, you won't have any after-market support (read: less expensive) source for new batteries: Toyota/Honda will have you by the short ones.   As an engineer you will appreciate the significance of the following data points....   In 41 states, soon 40, the hybrid warranty is 8 yrs or 100,000 miles. In 9 states, soon 10, the hybrid warranty is 10 yrs or 150,000 miles. Toyota has benchtested the HV batteries to 180,000 miles ( 20% longer than the longest warranty ) and found no deterioration in the HV battery system. It's statement is that the battery packs should last the life of the vehicle under normal conditions. The DOE at the direction of the Fed govt is in the process of testing all hybrids on the road. Idaho National Labs is doing these tests in real world conditions to 160,000 miles. The early tests on the first ones are done with no detrimental deterioration of the batteries. The Fuel economy is even improved somewhat. The Prius is THE No 1 most reliable vehicle in its class in both CR and JD Power's annual surveys. The Camry Hybrid is No 4 in the class.   Your resale comment is speculation at best. There is no proof of that whatsoever. In fact the Prius right now today is by far the best vehicle in holding its resale value. This is not a joke but you can sell a 1 y.o. used Prius for well above the MSRP of a new 2008 Prius. It's currently happening hundreds of times a day.   A lot of your opinions are unfounded fears from early in this decade. You might want to bring yourself up to date. Keep current ( ewwww) on the engineering validations and the increasing body of date being formed by over 1 million of these vehicles now in NA.

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