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Help me understand the value of the hybrid.

38 messages,  Last post on Sep 11, 2008 at 7:55 PM

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What is this discussion about? Toyota Prius, Honda Civic, Car Comparisons, Fuel Efficiency (MPG), Coupe, Hatchback

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#1 of 38 Help me understand the value of the hybrid. by sumrx4 Dec 13, 2007 (8:41 am)
Ok here goes. Hope you are sitting down!!   I currently drive an 98 Ford Escort that gets just under 40 mpg with 200k miles. I am looking to replace it in the next year. I would like a larger vehicle but with my commute it is not economically feesable. I drive 92+ miles 5 days a week 52 weeks a year. That makes a total of 23,920 miles. I have been looking at a Civic sedan (non hybrid) and a Prius. Equipped the way I want them the Honda would run $20,723 and the Prius $25,664. Using the listed MPG # on the websites the Honda would get 36 for a total of 665.0 gal per year. Figuring a gas cost of 2.85 that would make my yearly cost $1895.25. Using the same formula for the Prius (46mpg) my yearly cost would be (520gal X 2.85per gal =$1482.00. That's a yearly savings of $413.25 with the Prius. With a MSRP difference of $4,941 in favor of the Civic my yearly savings with the Prius mulitipied 10 years ($4132.50) would be ($808.50) short of covering the cost dfference in the two vehicles.   I know these numbers are just estimates but that is all one can do here is estimate. I also know there are other cost involved: maint,ins,etc. I am aware from reading here most seem to get 50mph or so with the Prius and that would be enough to offset the cost   Basically , as a "hybrid virgin", am trying to understand how ,if any, a hybrid will save me anything in the long run.   I am sorry this is so long and if it is in the wrong place but I figured real owners would give me the most "honest answers"   Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. Summer Replies to this message: eprupis (Dec 13, 2007 10:03 am) blufz1 (Dec 13, 2007 11:07 am) garv214 (Dec 13, 2007 2:10 pm) bob104 (Dec 14, 2007 7:22 pm) railroadjames (Dec 14, 2007 8:21 pm) stevedebi (Dec 18, 2007 11:46 am) etroup (Dec 26, 2007 12:13 pm) pathstar1 (Dec 26, 2007 1:36 pm) kenlw (Aug 28, 2008 10:47 am) and 1 more... carbot (Mar 20, 2008 8:25 pm) janakiram (Jul 08, 2008 9:16 am) ampeg500 (Sep 04, 2008 10:38 am) kdhspyder (Sep 05, 2008 3:55 am)
#2 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by eprupis Dec 13, 2007 (10:03 am)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 13, 2007 8:41 am) Given your driving patterns, you will do better than 50mpg if you are driving at 60mph or less. More important is the non-hybrid differences between the 2 cars. The smart key feature of the Prius is a delight. The seating area in both front and rear is large car generous for 4. The back seats fold down to convert to a van---I have saved several hundred dollars in delivery costs for a TV set, barbecue set, and recliner. The low emissions factor may countv with you and there may be some state tax advantages depending on your residence. Finally, gas prices are more likely to exceed 2.85 than not over the next ten tears.
#3 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by blufz1 Dec 13, 2007 (11:07 am)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 13, 2007 8:41 am) Just wait a year to buy. Then you can get a honda w/a diesel that will get you 50 mpg on the hwy and help pay for itself.
#4 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by garv214 Dec 13, 2007 (2:10 pm)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 13, 2007 8:41 am) Hey Summer   Given the amount of driving that you are doing and the length of time you plan on keeping your car, I wouldn't worry so much about the possible lack of payback. Instead, I would focus on which car you enjoy driving more (i.e. fits your driving style preferences better), after all you will be spending a LOT of time in your new car, so you may as well enjoy your time in it. The other advantage of the hybrid, other than gas mileage, is the reduced emissions. Of course, you can always purchase a car with a PZEV (partial zero emissions vehicle) rating if emissions is a big deal for you.   If you want to upscale, you can always look at a 1 year old Toyota Camry hybrid, I have seen them in our local craigslist.org (SF Bay Area) with approx 10K miles for $25-26K. The Camry seems to get similar gas mileage as your escort and it will definitely be a "step up" as far as comfort and size.   The trick is don't wait until you NEED to buy a car to start looking because you will lose a lot of your bargaining power (i.e. the power to walk away from a mediocre/bad deal).   Hope that helps.
#5 of 38 Help me understand the value of the hybrid. by sumrx4 Dec 14, 2007 (6:11 am)
Thanks for the info thus far.   eprupis: I agree with the emmissions idea and tax breaks but the other advantages to me don't mean anything. Not that they are not important to you and other people but the only one in the car will be myself and my major concern is personal comfort and operating cost. True the more gas prices increase the more savings will increase.   garv214: Great advice on comfort and fit. I hear what you say about the camry but then I am looking at possible spending more $ for the car.   I understand that we all want (or should want) to reduce our oil consumption and environmental harms. I also hear what both have said and while I appreciate it the question has not been answered. Where is the value in a hybrid car. Yes if you are driving a vehicle that gets 15mpg then there is no question but compared to most "economy" cars there is not enough operating cost difference to out weigh the purchase price. Am I not understanding something here? Am I wrong on their intended purpose? Please correct me if I am wrong, but I thought their whole existance was to save gas and be cheaper to operate. I don't see that from my side of the fence.   Basically I am not asking about any particular model or features I am asking about the hybrid consept. Sorry for being so hardheaded I just want to be as informed as I can and have learned that these forums can be invaluable with the amount of knowledge and experience on them   Keep the info coming Replies to this message: garv214 (Dec 14, 2007 1:53 pm) emgr (Dec 14, 2007 7:00 pm)
#6 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by garv214 Dec 14, 2007 (1:53 pm)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 14, 2007 6:11 am) I have found that from a financial payback perspective a hybrid is generally a losing proposition. When the current version of the Prius started becoming such a popular car, I questioned it from a financial perspective, because I was not seeing a positive financial return. The tough part of this analysis are the number of unknowns, the price of gas, the longevity of battery packs, actual MPG vs EPA MPG, resale value after 10 years, the amount of tax credit that can be applied...   I won't even go into the time value of money assumptions...   If you really want to compare apples to apples, then you should compare the Honda Civic with a Honda Civic Hybrid equipped the way you like and take into account the tax advantages in your payback calculations.   I think it comes down to this... People who buy hybrids are willing to risk/forego the financial benefits versus purchasing a conventional car in order to emit fewer emissions. You simply need to ask yourself if you are willing to trade some financial benefit for fewer emissions.
#7 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by emgr Dec 14, 2007 (7:00 pm)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 14, 2007 6:11 am) It has also been shown that a hybrid components parts don't wear as quickly as a similar non-hybrid, brakes, rotors, no starter to go bad, simpler transmission. So over the long haul you save additional dollars in less repair and replacement cost. That can up to a few thousand more depending on how long you keep the car. I believe the Prius brakes alone are good for 100,000 miles. That's at leastt 5 times longer than a conventional car.
#8 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by bob104 Dec 14, 2007 (7:22 pm)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 13, 2007 8:41 am) http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/buyingleasing/most-fuelefficient-cars-20- 6/index.htm?resultPageIndex=1&resultIndex=1&searchTerm=most%20fuel%20efficient%2- 0cars   Above is a url for some very realistic and detailed figures from Consumer Report for the topmost efficient cars. You can also play with the Edmunds.com TCO (True Cost to Own) figures and make an iffy estimate of your own costs. Lots of variables: how quickly will gasoline got to $7/gallon? How will the future higher price of gasoline impact resale value of Civic, Fit or Yaris compared to Prius? How much will a new battery cost eventually, with massive speculation in metals a new feature of investing? How much hwy driving do I do? What is the cost of amortizing the $5,000-7,000 more that the Prius/civic hybrid costs   I own a Prius, but I think you might be quite happy with a Fit or a Yaris, at least financially. I've played with the figures many times and I think a Fit or a Yaris is cheaper to own than a Prius until gasoline reaches at least $7/gallon.   In term of enviromental impacts I conjecture it's a wash because there is so much more material, some of it very toxic to mine and smelt, in a Prius than in a Yaris/Fit. About 20% of GHG emissions over the lifetime and lifecyle of a 20mpg Taurus, for example, comes from its manufacture.   Remember, apples to apples, a hybrid gets slightly worse mpg at highway speed (no braking) than the same car made as a non-hybrid.   I'd get a 1200cc Fit or Yaris . . . . if they'd only make them for the US market. Replies to this message: railroadjames (Dec 14, 2007 8:21 pm)
#9 of 38 Re: Help me understand the BIG values of the hybrid. [bob104] by railroadjames Dec 14, 2007 (8:21 pm)
Replying to: bob104 (Dec 14, 2007 7:22 pm) I have some good reasons to endorse the Prius. 1st: 78,000 miles in almost 4 yrs. 2nd: Over 100 Prius TAXI drivers highly endorse the heavily tried & true hybrid. 3rd: Give this some thought ...brakes seem to last forever and the tranny is simply amazing (smooth w/ no jerks) 4th: Don't worry about the battery. It's warranteed for ten yrs and I've yet to come across a dudd yet. 5th & lastly: Toyota quality is outstanding. Nuff said.   P.S. Resale values are as good as they get. (try to find a used one. people keep them and don't want to part with them) Don't forget...you're "greening" the world!!
#10 of 38 Re: Help me understand the value of the hybrid. [sumrx4] by stevedebi Dec 18, 2007 (11:46 am)
Replying to: sumrx4 (Dec 13, 2007 8:41 am) " I drive 92+ miles 5 days a week 52 weeks a year. "   The hybrid is most efficient in stop-and-go traffic conditions. On the highway the battery system cannot impact MPG as much. For your situation I think that a Yaris or Fit would be great (either will approach or pass 40 MPG). Either one is under 19K, and the mechanical components are much simpler.   At those mileages you are going to go through your 100K or 150K (depends on the state) hybrid warranty pretty fast.

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