Article Comments - Comparison Test: 2007-2008 Sport Sedans

475 messages, Last post on Jul 25, 2008 at 4:41 PM

You are in the Sedans Forum. Your Hosts are pat & karens

What is this discussion about? Cadillac CTS, BMW 3 Series, Infiniti G35, Mercedes-Benz 350-Class, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, Car Comparisons, Sedan

Comparison Test: 2007-2008 Sport Sedans - This is exactly why we gathered this group of sport sedans. That is, to find out if the 2008 Cadillac CTS, 2007 Infiniti G35 Sport, 2008 Lexus IS 350 or 2008 Mercedes-Benz C350 Sport can topple the Bavarian champ — the 2007 BMW 335i. In the spirit of the segment, each car in the test is outfitted with sport package hardware — usually a stiffer suspension and bigger wheels and tires — and an automatic transmission. (more)

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#426 of 475 Re: I did the homework/analysis for you [nizzo] by drtravel Apr 01, 2008 (4:43 pm)
Replying to: nizzo (Jan 08, 2008 8:24 pm) Here are the pertinent sales figures for the first quarter of 2008: BMW 3-Series 27,013 Infiniti G 18,932 Mercedes C-Class 17,141 Lexus IS 11,966 The BMW numbers include the sedans, coupes, conv and wagons Replies to this message: sjaieve (Apr 01, 2008 7:21 pm)
#427 of 475 Re: I did the homework/analysis for you [drtravel] by sjaieve Apr 01, 2008 (7:21 pm)
Replying to: drtravel (Apr 01, 2008 4:43 pm) So about 6000 335i variants were sold (20% estimate) vs 19k Gs. Interesting
#428 of 475 Objective or Subjective? by tagman Apr 01, 2008 (8:22 pm)
I've been reading this thread after reading the comparison test results. It's obvious that there is an objective winner that is not the same as the subjective winner. The Edmunds comments pretty much state that for all of us to read clearly. Personally, I don't need to hear too many opinions when researching cars. I want the facts. The only opinion that matters in the end is mine. When looking at the objective facts, the BMW 3-Series is the winner. When threading opinions and feelings and emotions and subjective evaluations into the mix, it gets muddy, and that gives us the G35 as the winner. I personally don't care who was the winner, but having read all of this I think it is fair to point out that sometimes it is good to step back and take an honest look at what has happened here. It is true that the "value" wild card must be played in order for the G35 to be the declared winner. By playing this subjective card, the result is that the factual and objective winner is no longer the winner. Instead, a subjective criteria has been inserted into the equation and everything changes. There are real diamonds and there are artificial diamonds. Some like the artificial diamonds because they are so well made nowadays that they are extremely close to the real thing at a fraction of the price. Does that make them better because their price is such a great "value"? I don't think so. There should be no doubt in anyone's mind here that the genuine winner of this comp is the BMW 335i. But, if you're looking for a really "good deal", the artificial winner is the G35. The sales numbers don't mean any more than the sales prices. They are all irrelevant to the actual performance achievements. These performance achievements are what really matters. They are the actual measurements of what these machines can do and what they are capable of. These measurements say everything about the design, engineering, and production of these automobiles and their combined components. Marketing, currency fluctuations, and any price or sales numbers are totally independent from these concrete achievements. It's always a tragic shame when comparisons start muddying the clear objective waters with muddy subjective evaluations and muddy subjective factors that differ from one person's interpretation and opinion to another. To keep it clear and honest, and not muddy, it should remain objective. In other words... which car, overall, outperformed all the rest? Which one showed us the best overall performance achievement? So... if all of us, including Edmunds, are totally honest here, then the BMW 335i is the actual (objective) winner, and the G35 is the honorary (subjective) winner, due to it's outstanding and compelling value. Now THAT's the real truth! TagMan Replies to this message: sjaieve (Apr 02, 2008 12:44 am) gooddeal2 (Apr 02, 2008 7:09 am) bmajik (Apr 02, 2008 9:29 am) sjaieve (Apr 02, 2008 10:20 am) circlew (Apr 03, 2008 2:03 pm) jeffmo2334 (Apr 02, 2008 6:24 am) scottm123 (Apr 03, 2008 3:45 pm) circlew (Apr 03, 2008 1:58 pm)
#429 of 475 Re: Objective or Subjective? [tagman] by sjaieve Apr 02, 2008 (12:44 am)
Replying to: tagman (Apr 01, 2008 8:22 pm) I have read many a time how the 335i's perfomance is close to perfection and based on this, the 335 is clearly ahead in this regard, however your analysis is inaccurate when you say value is subjective, unfortunately for you, value is objective. The G is priced much lower than a 335i. This explains why the G sells more than the 335i. I wouldn't equate the G's perfomance to a fake diamond, its a real diamond but may have less clarity/carats than the 335i's . Personally I congratulate Edmunds for thinking outside the box and declaring something else other than the 335 the winner. I couldn't care less if the CTS was the winner. I acknowledge that the 335 is great in perfomance but it lacks in everything else IMO, value included. Replies to this message: gooddeal2 (Apr 02, 2008 7:09 am) bmajik (Apr 02, 2008 9:29 am) sjaieve (Apr 02, 2008 10:20 am) circlew (Apr 03, 2008 2:03 pm)
#430 of 475 Re: Objective or Subjective? [tagman] by jeffmo2334 Apr 02, 2008 (6:24 am)
Replying to: tagman (Apr 01, 2008 8:22 pm) Does reliability count here? Is reliability an objective factor? If car A has 3% better performance than car B, but on average is going to have twice as many repair issues after 5 years, then is car A really objectively better than car B? And is price really a subjective factor? Seems pretty objective to me. Again, if car A has minimally better performance than car B, but costs a lot more, then is it really subjective to rate car B better than car A? A car's looks are subjective. Color choice is subjective. But reliability and price are objective factors to weigh against performance. Objectively, on road tests, the two cars' performance are very similar -- maybe a very slight edge to the BMW. If the Bimmer costs $10k more and is less reliable, why is rating the G better than the Bimmer a subjective decision? Replies to this message: scottm123 (Apr 03, 2008 3:45 pm)
#431 of 475 Re: Objective or Subjective? [sjaieve] by gooddeal2 Apr 02, 2008 (7:09 am)
Replying to: sjaieve (Apr 02, 2008 12:44 am) I wouldn't equate the G's perfomance to a fake diamond, its a real diamond but may have less clarity/carats than the 335i's . I agree...I like to think the same way as when I was in school. If 90% or above is an A, why I need to care if I get 90 or 100. Why do I need to care that tiny imperfection (mostly about materials) just to pay 8 to 10K more?
#432 of 475 Re: Decision Time - BMW335xi vs G35xS [shawn22] by klossfam Apr 02, 2008 (8:21 am)
Replying to: shawn22 (Mar 29, 2008 11:52 am) I can comment as I own a 2008 G35xS and have spent a lot of seat time in a 335i and xi (including time at the BMW Performance Driving School in SC)...I can afford either but to me, even at equal pricing, the G35 is a better combo of sport & luxury...The ability of the G to be "Lexus-like" on the highway and "bad ass" at the stop light drags is amazing...Plus you get a useable back seat, great ergos and Nissan/Infiniti reliability...Also, all the press about "almost no turbo lag" in the 335 is pure BS...when driven hard, the lag is evident - and thus the real world torque of the 335 lags well behind the G...you will use more gas in the G (I get about 18 mpg mixed and 22 hwy - but not totally broken in yet)...Save the $10K and get the better all around car...
#433 of 475 Re: Objective or Subjective? [sjaieve] by bmajik Apr 02, 2008 (9:29 am)
Replying to: sjaieve (Apr 02, 2008 12:44 am) Having several years research and development experience with 3 major automotive manufacturers, foreign and domestic I find it very perplexing how much credit the general public gives to the journalist that write for magazines such as Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and others. Most of these writers do not have a relevant automotive industry background or they are former race car drivers that most of us can't relate to when it comes to driving a car. The later is a great perspective to have but, how many of us can safely push a car to its limits in everyday use like a race car driver does on a track? How many of us need that extra 0.01g on the skid-pad or that extra tenth of a second on a quarter mile? It is great to have bragging rights but, it is really of little significance in the overall scheme of things when purchasing a car. I often wonder what the average Joe would buy if he could only depend on his own feedback from a test drive. There is an old John Wayne movie called, The Man Who shot Liberty Valance. The movie has a great quote in it that says, "When the legend becomes fact, print the legend". Are people purchasing BMW simply based on legend? If you are not following me on this, look at it this way. My father-in-law who does not follow basketball recently picked Duke University to win the NCAA tournament. I asked why he selected them, he simply replied, "It's Duke, they are a great team!". There is no doubt that Duke has great basketball history and tradition however, Duke lost in the second round of the tournament. Did he pick Duke to win it all based on legend? I think so. Just my $0.02 Replies to this message: sjaieve (Apr 02, 2008 10:20 am) circlew (Apr 03, 2008 2:03 pm)
#434 of 475 Re: Objective or Subjective? [bmajik] by sjaieve Apr 02, 2008 (10:20 am)
Replying to: bmajik (Apr 02, 2008 9:29 am) You know what, for a long time I have been reading these forums and reading how much the 335i is so great and glamorous. I was beginning to think am I the only one who sees things differently? I am glad there are others out there who see the 335i for what it is. An overpriced car that does not offer much but whats in Car & Driver and other car magazines where editors there are still hanging on to the legend as you indicated. 335i knocked out the C Class a long time ago, that was then, this is now. Car & Driver went on to declare the 328 the winner against the G, are you kidding me? Where does the 328i excel against the G. The answer to that is the BS handling they throw in
#435 of 475 Re: Objective or Subjective? [tagman] by circlew Apr 03, 2008 (1:58 pm)
Replying to: tagman (Apr 01, 2008 8:22 pm) Amen...my truth is, I sat in the G35 at the NYIAS and the interior fit and finish were down a few grades form my '06 3'er. That is a strike one for me. (Yhr Accura TL felt the same to me). Knowing the drive/fit/finish of the 330 and then a day with the 335i, I already have a good feel of the differences between the 2. Next pitch will be served up on a test drive of my own for both the G35, 335. Then I decide. Oh...and a quick spin in a 1'er. Regards, OW